Loneliness and Creativity
Ali
We are Lonely is recorded across a number of Aboriginal lands including the Eora Nations and the Kulin nations of the Gadigal people. We would like to pay our respects to the Elders and custodians of these lands. We would also like to pay our respects to the custodians of the land on which you are now listening.
Kween Kong
I do feel like there's a there's a part of the loneliness that's really important. As an artist, like it is important to feel like you need to be on your own to boil down your thoughts or to boil down your ideas or your creativity. And that in order for you to be able to go through that process, you do have need to have minimal people in your circle that can understand.
Ali
Working in a creative field in Australia, or in fact anywhere in the world, isn’t always easy. As an artist or musician or writer, it takes time to develop your craft, and then there is a challenging road to getting your work seen by the world. This is something I’ve definitely experienced as an author. The large expanses of time alone mixed with the reality that a creative road isn’t necessarily a straight one can lead to feelings of loneliness. The creation stage in itself can be lonely, and it’s even harder if the people in your life don’t understand your passion. Josie knew she wanted to make music from when she was a young girl. Now she’s studying music at TAFE and has just released her first EP. She’s on her path and listening to her passion. At the same time, she’s managing chronic illness.
Josie
I feel like, like everyone's moving on with their lives and I'm like frozen in time yeah just not doing what I want to do and so that was very hard, and I worked a lot to reframe that to get to a more empowered place with how like one leaders been from these experiences
Ali
We’ve connected Josie with a mentor who understands the loneliness of creativity better than most.
Kween Kong
My name is Kween Kong in drag out of drag. My name is Thomas Quinoa. I guess I'm a bit of a drag legend here in Australia and New Zealand, I was probably best known to be on a TV show called repose drag race known under where I was a runner up. But since the show, I think, you know, my brand of like activism and empowerment, and also being in the community, and a community leader has been sort of the thing that's really driven my career, why.
Ali
Do you resonate with working on a show about loneliness?
Kween Kong
Ah, a couple of reasons. You know, I think, you know, coming from the queer community, you know, I do notice within my own community, how loneliness really hits us, you know, in a different kind of way. And so, you know, going through my own bouts of loneliness and depression and mental health, I think, you know, the best thing you can do is, you know, get into the ring and let yourself you know, be a shoulder be something or a safe space for, you know, people that might be experiencing it currently. So, I really wanted to weigh in and give some help and some love to some people that might need it.
Ali
And you mentioned you were on RuPaul drag race, how did taking part in that show impact your life and your connections?
Kween Kong
Drag Race was such a, you know, I think it's layered because I think naturally, anyone that knows me knows that I'm, you know, an introvert at heart, you know, that extroverted self has definitely saved for stage. And so going on drag race initially, it was really nerve racking because I didn't necessarily think a personality like mine would be would go down well on the show, because in some regards, I feel like I'm a little bit boring, you know, I'm not I'm not really want to throw shade, and you know, give them to stupid fights like high school, because most drag queens are known for being sassy. And I can be that, but naturally, I prefer to, you know, uplift people and make people feel good, rather than tear them down. So, you know, I think drag race was a little bit nerve wracking, but I think, you know, if you can't see it, be it. And so I think going on the show, I had the purpose of going there and creating another lane for Queens like myself, who want to show up and hold space for people and, you know, really represent what drag is about which is, you know, being pillars of a community of love and acceptance.
Ali
You're such a wonderful mentor for this episode, because we're looking at loneliness in relation to building a creative career. And I'm an author, so I can definitely relate to that type of loneliness. And it's not something that is often talked about the loneliness of a creative career. So, you've talked about how you're a drag artist, but you've also been a dancer for a number of companies in your life. I'm really interested to hear your view, how does taking part in something that's public? On the one hand, so much alone time in building your skill? What how would you be able to comment on the, the experience of loneliness in relation to the creative career?
Kween Kong
The, for me, personally, as an artist, it was always about taking my broad ideas, you know, taking my stories, taking my experience, my perspective, put it into the studio and figuring out ways to sort of broaden that approach that it's not just me getting on stage and just bleeding in front of people. It's more like a space that I can offer or like, you know, people can attach their own stories. You know, from that respect, I think loneliness as an artist is really important because it really makes you boil down who you are, what you are, and what you have to say, you know, and I think especially as an artist, like as an artist, as an author, like, you need to have a perspective and I think those times on your own in the studio, is where you get to find your voice and you know your difference your point of difference in the world.
Ali
What a beautiful perspective, I've never thought about it like that, that that loneliness could potentially be essential for your creative production for your creative work. I'm so fascinated to hear how your conversation with Josie goes and I'll let you go and meet her now.
Kween Kong
Amazing, so excited.
Hi, Josie. I have to say, it's such a privilege to be sitting here with you I feel like there are some parallels that I would love to dive into with you like your music is incredible. I listened to your EP this weekend. I'm a big fan. How are you? And welcome.
Josie
Thank you. Yeah, honestly, I was doing scrolling back in December when I came across the ad for the We are Lonely podcasts. And I was like, oh my god, I'm lonely right now. And so, I feel so lucky to be here. And to be inspired and to inspire.
Kween Kong
Oh, I love that to inspire you have to be inspired. So that sounds amazing. But speaking of doom, scrolling and like, obviously distracting from what's going on. Obviously, we are here on this project. This podcast is based around loneliness, which is such a heavy and isolating topic. Let's get into the safe space and know that you're safe with me and maybe dive into some of these stories into your story personally so that we can understand what the trajectory is and where we can arrive to together because I want to help.
Josie
I'll share one of the biggest moments was when I was like 10, I was at a Taylor Swift concert. And that was when I realised, I wanted to do music. Because it was just so inspiring and ever since then, I've been singing and writing songs and posting videos and collaborating with other people. And it's been quite isolating in the sense that I've had so many conversations where people like, well, what's your backup plan? And, like, you don't really know what you're doing, like, well, or, like, kind of hinting to that. And so that has been, like, quite hard to go through. Because it's like, my dream, and the thing that feels most, most authentic to me to do. And in the last like, three years, my health also got really bad. And I have been working on healing, like eczema and anxiety and depression. So that has definitely been something that's hugely impacted my capacity to work on my creativity and follow my dreams, essentially, yeah, it’s been a bit of a journey.
Kween Kong
Bit of a journey. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. It sounds like you'll love what you just described to me in terms of what you're feeling in terms of loneliness, it's been sort of a reaction to not only your health, but also your decision to choose your passion as your career path. Where are you at, like now, like, at this moment with loneliness, how are you feeling like, at the present as we're speaking,
Josie
Um, say, I'm in a period right now, where the loneliness does feel quite high. Especially because I feel like I've grown a lot like, in the last year, and just like, my tolerance for relationships that make me feel unseen and unheard and unloved has just diminished as I've grown, to love myself more.
Kween Kong
Wow well, I think what you said before, it's like, generally speaking, we feel lonely, or we feel loneliness, when our needs aren't being met, or when the people around us aren't giving us what we need. I think you know, with what you're experiencing, especially as an artist, I feel like as an artist, to an artist, I feel like everything that you're going through right now is probably going to be it's like the diamond process of like, you know, you're boiling down all these things that are important to you. And that's obviously reflected in your music because I can hear it, you know, and I think naturally, it's sort of trickling into other aspects of your life right now, which would, I guess in points where you feel lonely, be what's making you feel lonely? Because I guess, you know, for me, on one hand, I can count how many close friends I have. It's literally five friends that I know on my everything they like, they love me, but they'll also hold me accountable when I need to be held accountable.
Josie
I can barely count how many friends I have on one hand. But it feels much more like my energy is contained now. Like I feel much more like I'm protecting myself from people that just haven't made me feel good. And that that creates space for like a real good bunch of people to come in and be what I need in this new chapter of my life.
Kween Kong
I feel like the way we're talking about loneliness is sort of, in my opinion suits feels like we were talking about the resilient part of loneliness as opposed to like the, you know, the depression and the sadness, which we can also experience. I do feel like there's a there's a part of the loneliness that's really important. As an artist, like it is important to feel like you need to be on your own to boil down your thoughts or to boil down your ideas or your creativity. And that in order for you to be able to go through that process, you do have need to have minimal people in your circle that can understand. More often than not like when we are experiencing those those bouts of loneliness or we're feeling really isolated or finding ourselves in a rut. Generally speaking, I feel like most of us feel like we're the only one experiencing this. Do you feel like you have ever gotten out of that situation out of that space? Or out of that mentality?
Josie
Yeah, I feel like I've climbed out of that, like, kind of space a lot. What really has gotten me through all those moments is just recognising that it's just a temporary emotion and looking to finding stories and people that have done what I want to do and just created what they've wanted to create. And yeah, so like I tried to curate my social media following, like, what, who I follow to, like, make it a space where I'm just always looking at people that inspire me and, like, share authentically and vulnerable vulnerably to, yeah, make me feel less alone and remind me I'm not alone.
Kween Kong
So beautiful, I think it's it is important what you're what you're saying, like, the thing about when you are going through those ruts. And I've definitely experienced those myself, you know, being queer, being of colour being a drag queen, like, you know, I obviously am connected to a community that is really under scrutiny in so many ways, especially now, I feel like there's still a vast majority of people that prefer us to be stuck in the closet. And so generally speaking, like, in my moments of feeling lonely I don’t know there have been times when my shoulders get tired from holding, or like, holding the ceiling up and looking out for others where. And so I think there are all these things that we can do, as you said, using our social media platforms, you know, to follow people that, you know, we connect to or resonate with us that shared vulnerability that make you feel seen and heard and acknowledged, I think these things are really valid and really important things that you've done for yourself. So yeah, I think you know, the biggest thing of anyone listening around, you know, loneliness is you are never alone. You really aren't like you are connected to something way bigger. And there's definitely someone experiencing what you're experiencing,
Kween Kong
I think especially, it's such an exciting time in your career, where you are, like, you're just at the precipice of feels like I think, you know, there are definitely things that you can help people that you can involve yourself with, I think in terms of the community, like, sounds like you need someone to help produce an event or produce your shows or something. Because especially like, if you're experiencing, you can only manage your own workload and your own energy. And if you're feeling ill, you definitely need like another person to help assist in sort of creating. So that being said, where are you at currently, with the relationships that you have in your life, like around feeling lonely, or, you know, what's the relationship like with the people that you have in your circle.
Josie
Um, it's definitely the cycle has shrunk. I'm really lonely, but there's like so much space and possibility for more aligned people to come through to. Yeah, and this is like the, oh, what's the word? Like in between period before new relationships begin where I'm like, not sure where it's gonna go, but I'm trusting that it's gonna be good.
Kween Kong
That's exciting. I feel like everything that you're saying. Like, the way you're talking about it, you know, that they're gonna be coming, you know, they will be we coming in terms of helping that process along, I think there are definitely things that you can do to if you are not necessarily a social person and looking to connect with people. Are there are there certain things other than social media that you've done to connect to people when you're feeling lonely? Um…
Josie
Mainly just going to go to different events of things that I enjoy, like different art classes and, and what else? Sometimes, if I see someone at like a cafe or something that, like I like the outfit, I'll try and get up the courage to compliment them. Or yeah, kind of, I've done a lot of cold DMS, which were quite scary at first. But like when I found people that I have a lot of connecting points with, like the musicians in my local area, or like other creative, so people that have just posted stuff that inspired me, I just like start with a compliment, or like, tell them a bit about just what has drawn me to them and what I love about that, what they create.
Kween Kong
I guess, you know, with everything we're talking about, like, you know, I have to say like, it's it is really impressive to hear all the things that you're doing for yourself, as well as not only just in terms of your career or where you're going but just in terms of how you're navigating, you know, your mental health, your emotional health, spiritual, all of the all of the things that are happening, you know, while you're transitioning into becoming this artists that you are definitely becoming, you know, I feel like, you're definitely on the right track. What are some strategies we can look at, you know, what are some other things that you, you think you are willing or able to do, you know, currently to broaden that sort of? Circle?
Josie
Yeah, so one thing that me and other people, I think, in general have underestimated is just being energetically open. Like sometimes when I'm just walking in the street, I it in this kind of a bit, I guess, we were but in my fields, I imagined, I have like, an energetic field around me. And I'm kind of opening up in visualising just an energy of openness to connection and, and so, yeah, just like, I do a lot of mindset work and just like, and that kind of often leads me to going to places to do what I love. And I end up meeting people that are also doing what they love. Um…
Kween Kong
like having an open energy is super important. Especially like if you're wanting to attract or like, bring in the right kinds of people. I think generally speaking like you can, I don't know if you can tell, but I can normally tell when I'm walking past someone if the energy is like, kind of vibing off, I can probably tell within two seconds if I'm talking to someone, I'm like, yeah, give, like I liked you. I like I'll be respectful like you, but we're definitely not gonna I'm not exchanging numbers. So, Josie I think, you know, obviously, we having these talks about the strategies and things that you're experiencing, maybe we can set a couple of like, not necessarily tasks, but just things to be conscious of for the next few weeks while we're going through this process. You know, like reaching out to people and trying to forge or, or create more of a deeper connection with people whether that being a friend or someone to mentor or someone to help you, you know, as a producer or someone to help you with producing work. or even people within your community like and we don't have to sort of name the names. But are there people that in your mind, like when we're talking about this that, you know, in the next few weeks that you wanted or been curious about, you know, having more of a deeper connection or being friends or, you know, collaborating with musically in your career?
Josie
I guess I've met like a few new people that are in like the music industry and gotten their Instagrams and already had written down to message them and open up a discussion, possibly, just to get advice. And even was one girl she's a Canadian musician that was on Tik Tok, and was like, she posted a cover. And she was like, if anyone ever wants to talk, just message me. And I did. And we've had like, a few calls now. And she's like, my international Muso, pen pal now. So, like, yeah, never underestimate the power of just reaching out. And that's like, a strategy that I've done so many times where it like, hasn't really worked out. But I've been like, yeah, just keep doing it. Like, until it works.
Kween Kong
Because there's no blueprint, that's a thing. There's never a blueprint where you're an independent artist, so you don't know. Basically, faking it till you make it or, you know what I mean? So, if anyone's story helps, they can go, oh, well, I did this, you know, you can go okay, I'll try that. So maybe it is about like, say, for example, going back when you go back to New South Wales, having a look at like, what funding is available. And you know, if you want to go to your friend in Canada, so you're like, go and visit her and actually collaborate going, actually, I can get a travel grant for like five grand to take me there. Yeah. Oh.
Josie
My God, that's so funny. So that because she was doing a gig. And I was like, oh, wish I could come and she's like, Yeah, just like, take a $5,000 flight and come here. And I was like, Well, if I could…
Kween Kong
Maybe let’s explore that. There's definitely some grants, something things that you can access, even a quick response grab that could get you to go over there and do a collaboration. That'd be cute. So, Josie, obviously, we've got to, in the next few weeks, I think maybe something we can work towards, potentially for you personally. maybe like thinking of someone, or people or a group of people or a collective, that might be able to help guide you through some of these interim spaces.
Josie
Yeah, yeah, that'd be really good. So yeah, I'm really looking for that kind of mentorship.
Ali
Okay, so how would your time with Josie go?
Kween Kong
Oh, my goodness, it's so exciting. Like I think, you know, I obviously knew a little bit about her going into this meeting. And I think after meeting her, I feel really inspired. I think that's the biggest thing at the forefront of my brain has inspired, I can see where she wants to go. I can feel, you know, the things she's experiencing right now. But I feel like she's right on track to achieving everything that she wants. Yeah, so I feel…
Ali
Nice. And one element of Josie story is that she's building an online persona. And I think there's a lot of people listening who are in the same situation, do you have any recommendations for people who have an online presence? They might be? Or they might describe themselves as influences or artists? How can that impact their daily connection with themselves? Are there any tips that you have for how to keep yourself in touch with who you are, while also creating this online presence?
Kween Kong
Oh, absolutely. I think, you know, with my own experience of, you know, semi transitioning into being an influencer, influencer myself, I think, you know, the first protocol is, you know, you have to, you have to know your why, in a way you're doing it, are you doing it to help others? Are you doing it to help yourself? You know, I think that sort of reason will definitely dictate, you know, how you use your platform. And I think it always should come from your heart. And from your own experience, you should be coming to like commenting on your experience of things, but also being very clear about what your perspective is, you know, that's what I would recommend anyway. And…
Ali
When you say that you take that persona or that that, however authentic it is, and in from hearing what you're saying, it almost sounds like that persona is more authentic, because you're sharing it in such a raw way, who you are, what then happens when you go out into the real world and have connections with people? Do you find that people expect or or want you to be the same as your online presence? How do you navigate those different sides? Or I would say it's the same?
Kween Kong
Absolutely, I think boundaries definitely like the word, I don't think you have to keep them separate. Because I think and that's coming from someone who does drag, you know, has I've got two separate profiles, like there's Kween economist, Thomas, who's essentially the same person, you know, it looks like I'm kind of schizophrenic, but for my own mental health, it just separates, you know, what Kween is to me. And also, what Thomas's to me is in terms of, you know, the personality, which might be for others, and then, you know, the personality who was me, that is for me, if that makes sense. I think it's an introvert, the extrovert, it's just an easy way for me to see things. So I definitely feel like it's important to keep a boundary and also to know, you know, especially with how, you know, how, how quickly with cancel culture and, and certain things like this, how toxic the internet and social media can be, it's important to have, you know, some, some mechanisms to keep yourself safe from things that aren't as, as nice to receive like bad comments or people that don't agree with you.
Kween Kong
Hi, Josie, how you going?
Josie
Yeah, just finishing up study and guy into holidays now. So excited.
Kween Kong
Obviously, like, I think the last time we spoke, you know, we had sort of discussed a couple of like, things that we could maybe explore, you know, in will separating and then just to sort of test what is but, um, as any of the things, you know, the, the any of the suggestions that we sort of made last time. Can we check in and maybe see how many of those kinds of things progressed since we last spoke?
Josie
Yeah, definitely. I have been looking a lot into mentors and how to, like, go about reaching out. And I really liked the idea that I've just been kind of not really sure how to go about reaching out to people with maybe like a larger audience. I've been going to a few different events to meet other like-minded creatives. And that's been good to just connect to community.
Kween Kong
Congratulations. That's such incredible work. I know. Definitely. It's really tricky. When you're trying to navigate your own career. There's no blueprint. And also, I think it's amazing that you're going out to live events and connecting with people that way because, again, like as we spoke about You know, feeling lonely, the hardest thing is actually just sort of getting out and about and sort of trying to be proactive. You know, in times, we're feeling isolated. So just want to give you your flowers, it's amazing. You know, I definitely think I was going to suggest it. And then you said, going to the live events and sort of being in the space and like witnessing sort of someone's process, and then talking to them, like at the bar, or something afterwards is definitely something that I do if I feel it, if I find it hard to sort of message people, and I know from my own experience, you know, messages on online can sometimes not necessarily connect with people as much as you can face to face. So that was literally gonna be my suggestion that you said it. So, I think you're super amazing.
Josie
Thank you. Yeah, I think that's a good idea. I've done that before, with a few different people. And I feel like it's been much less nerve wracking to connect in person, because when I go up to them, when I start chatting to them, it's like, oh, they're just like a person on a journey just like me. Also, when I'm at a physical event and supporting them, I feel like, it's much easier for my message that I want to give to them to not get lost in translation, because like with messages, it can be really easy these days to like, not be able to get to the mall,
Kween Kong
I feel like it's so important to identify what you just said to Ben, especially, like, if you're looking for someone to mentor you, or to receive a bit of guidance in terms of navigating your career as an independent artist. I think that that act of supporting someone's show goes a long way. And that comes from, you know, I think for me, too, I think it's really important to show show up to different events. We all know how hard our industry is. Yeah. Now, I think, you know, in terms of the grants, like were there any grants in particular that you that you've looked at, across the sort of time we've been apart,
Josie
I was looking into a wide range of grants, there was three in particular that I think music Australia do, and one of them was looking into like your audience and working on social media and marketing with a mentor. And another one was like touring internationally, so get help working on that with someone I think it involves travel. Amazing.
Kween Kong
That sounds really exciting. Oh, my goodness. Definitely. In regards to the pot, this podcast, and you know, these the series, like were there any takeaways or anything, any lessons or, or feedback that you had? Yeah,
Josie
Well, one thing that really, I really liked was just opening up the discussion with people and knowing that it's gonna go out there and other people will listen to it, and hopefully be positively inspired, or just fulfil, so learn from it was really good for me. And it really motivated me being a part of this podcast to take more action and keep going to create what I want to create in my life, specifically around community, and strategies for loneliness that has impacted by various factors of life, like, specifically what we touched on creativity, and like, when you're going through health issues.
Kween Kong
I think, you know, obviously, like, like, knowing that you're going out to live events, and you're actively looking for, like a community that aligns with you, like, I think, naturally, that feels like it's sort of, you know, what, we're all kind of navigating in our own lives, you know, trying to find our way and also trying to find the methods of like communication that suit all of us, especially within the arts, you know, when we're introverted or, you know, used to working alone. So, I do, I just want to praise you and give you lots of credit for all of the efforts that you've put into this process. And also, you know, I'm really excited to see where it's gonna go, because this is obviously just like, what, a few weeks, six weeks of our project that we work together. And then, yeah, I think you've done an incredible job, this process and it's been such an honour to listen to your story and, you know, work side by side and sort of offer some gems that I've discovered along the way as well. So…
Josie
Thank you, I appreciate your kind words and all your support. It's meant so much to me.
Ali
If you want to build a creative career, it’s true that it will come with particular challenges. You need to focus on building the work you want to share, and that in itself can be lonely. Often other people don’t understand the choice to go into a career that isn’t stable or predictable, and that judgement can make you feel lonely, in fact we can put that judgement on ourselves. As Kween says, it is important first to spend time alone to build something creative, and that form of loneliness is often part of the creative experience, this was a real revelation for me. But that doesn’t mean you need to feel isolated. Look for ways to build a community of people who understand your work and your experience. Find social media spaces that offer inspiration and connection, and then bring that into your life. Find like minded people through classes, events and study. And look for mentors who understand where you’re at and what opportunities lie ahead. Because you may be on your own path with your career, but you don’t need to be alone.
If this show has raised any issues for you, remember there are always places to turn, such as Lifeline on 13 11 14; Beyond Blue.org.au; and ReachOut.com, which offers dedicated support for young people. For more information and tips to help you if you’re feeling lonely, visit we are lonely.com.au We are Lonely is produced as part of Medibank’s ten-year commitment to addressing loneliness. I am Ali Walker. This show was produced and edited by Liz Keen and Simon Portus from Headline Productions with support from Cara O’Brien and Olivia Patchett. Our theme music is by Kenneth Lampl. Our team from Medibank include Karen Oldaker, Katrina Weir, Jessica Salter and Rebecca Carter. And project and Production Management by Rob Ranieri and Nick Randall from Ranieri and Co.
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