We Are Lonely episode five

We Are Lonely follows nine young adults experiencing loneliness in different situations who meet with a mentor to find ways to build greater connections with people and feel less lonely. Access the transcript for episode five.

Loneliness and Mental Health

Ali

We are Lonely is recorded across a number of Aboriginal lands including the Eora Nations and the Kulin nations of the Gadigal people. We would like to pay our respects to the Elders and custodians of these lands. We would also like to pay our respects to the custodians of the land on which you are now listening.

Will  

In school, we always had RUOK day. And that was a day where it's like, obviously, it's a mental health focus day, you're supposed to ask all your mates about how you're doing. And I would ask quite a few people, but I personally, in all my years of existing, I've never been asked RUOK,

Ali

Loneliness isn’t always a symptom of a mental illness. It’s a sign that we need to work on the basic need all of us have for connection. But people who are experiencing a mental health condition are more likely to feel lonely. They’re also less likely than others to address the loneliness itself. Will was diagnosed with ADHD in high school, and a few years later he was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder. He also lives with anxiety. That - along with his experiences at school - have contributed to him feeling lonely. That means in today’s episode we’ll be talking about a range of mental health conditions and treatments. We Are Lonely isn’t intended to replace individual health professional care. If you have any concerns or questions surrounding your mental health, you should seek advice from your health professional. You can also go to Reachout.com or Beyond Blue.org.au for online or phone support. 

James

My name’s James Van Cuylenburg, I’m a clinical psychologist.

Ali  

Are the skills for reaching out for being vulnerable and asking to make friends something we should all have innately? Or do you think that they’re skills we can learn, there are…

James  

Definitely skills we can learn. But obviously, our experiences growing up, are going to shape those skills, they're going to shape how confident we feel within ourselves how at ease and how much trust we have in other people, I think we have to always remember that the ability to make friends does require trust. And it requires the sense that this is going to go well, if I am vulnerable and put myself out there and try and make new connections that that might be something that goes well for me. And of course, for a lot of young people, that's just not the case, they've had negative experiences, whether at home or at school, that have caused an idea to take root that maybe I'm not okay, maybe I'm more likely to be rejected.

Ali  

And also, what I'm thinking about with young adults is that they've never had any education around how to make friends. If we think about sports, the way that we approach that is so different to the way we approach relationships. So, we are happy to put children in sports early on. And it's just expected that they will be beginners and that they will make mistakes. And we give people that time to grow. But friendships seem so different. Yeah. And there's a lot of perceived stigma around loneliness. So not only do we not give ourselves space to grow and learn, there's this stigma around loneliness, where we can think that if people know we're lonely, that they'll judge us. Does that make it harder than to make friends? Does that sense of vulnerability around it make it harder to make friends? 

James  

Yeah, I think it does. I think we have this perception that we have to meet certain standards by certain times in our lives, but a lot of that is self-imposed, but also by society, I think. But one of the great challenges I think of the Mental Health conversation in general is to normalise this stuff and recognise that it's good to be vulnerable. It's okay to be vulnerable. It's certainly okay to be lonely because it's human, and it's natural. So, the more we can kind of de stigmatise, demystify this stuff and talk about it more, which is, I guess, is the whole point of the podcast, we're going to make it easier for people to be kinder to themselves while they learn these skills, even if it happens later. 

Ali  

So important, I think a lot of us are participating less in society. So, I just spoke about sport before community sport rates are going down, volunteering is going down. How much is our increased loneliness? correlated with that?

James  

Yeah, I think we're seeing enormous change in the social landscape as things become more digital overall. And we are perhaps more me centric than we then perhaps we were in the past, I think there's a transition away from traditional institutions, like churches and things like that, that in the past, just naturally brought people together into the common kind of town square, we had even common experiences of TV and, you know, music, it was much more kind of streamlined and uniform. And I think the the general sense of we was much stronger in the past. And I do actually think there's a cost to that there's, there's going to be a mental health cost that we're still kind of learning 

Ali  

Okay, I'll let you go and meet Will.

James  

Thank you very much.

Will

My name is Will and I'm 19 I'm currently studying at TAFE for a student learning support role I am comfortable sharing my story and I think other people will find value in being able to relate to a similar story a good friendship for me is somebody who is willing to be there for me and listen to me and I'm also able to listen to them it's a bit of a set of scales really 

James  

So, what was it about this topic that, you know, struck your interest and made you think, yeah, that might be something I am interested to talk about. 

Will  

Think because it's something that I deal with on a consistent basis, and something that I can sort of relate to? And, you know, always open to sort of talk about it and improve on it. Yeah. 

James  

If we could just start with, do you mind just telling us a bit about yourself? Well,

Will  

I didn't complete my high school sort of dropped out in the latter years, just due to mental health. Like hiking a lot. Bit of an active sort of person. Yeah, I guess I don't really have loads of close sort of friends or close relationships with people. But I've always sort of, I guess wanted that. Yeah. 

James

Okay. So, if we can just go back to what you were talking about in terms of high school. So, it sounds like you had quite a complicated mental health journey through high school. Yeah. Can you go back to perhaps even the beginning of that, like, was there a time for you in school was easier when it was less complicated? 

Will

I think I've always sort of struggled in school in general, because my grades were never like what the school wanted them to be. I guess in the earlier years, I struggled a lot on getting what was in my head onto paper or onto the page. But I was very good at talking or speaking about what they wanted to hear. And I guess Yeah. And that was that was picked up from pretty a pretty young age. I think in year four, I had a teacher who really sort of noticed that… Obviously, I knew something wasn't right. Because you know, I'm getting all this assistance I'm being called in to talk about it with teachers and principals and stuff like that. But at the same time, there's no word to describe what's not right with me or what's not, what's causing this.

James  

So, you start to be confused, you know, that something's different. And I guess if we're thinking about loneliness, one of the core aspects of why we might feel lonely, is if we define ourselves as different or we feel different to what is quote, unquote, normal. Do you think that's what was starting to happen around that time? Think a little bit? Yeah. So, what about socially, how were things going for you with friends during those years?

Will  

Um, I always had friends, like, I always had friend groups and stuff like that. But I guess, I would always say that I would be the like, outsider, I guess the way that my mum sort of described it in school. And I would agree with this, as I was a bit of a floater, like I would have friend groups, but there would be long periods of time where I just wouldn't get invited to anything, I'm an only child, so I don't have any siblings. And when I was growing up, where we rented you couldn't have dogs or pets or anything like that. And I remember really, really wanting like a pet or something. And I ended up getting fish and they're obviously not super, you know, you can't talk to them for much. But yeah, I guess that's that's how I describe it in short, you know.

James  

So, when was the first time someone said, hey, I think you might have ADHD.

Will  

The first time would have been the year eight, I believe. And it was funny. I was actually in an English class sitting next to one of my mates who was diagnosed with ADHD. And he sort of just noticed me and the way that I would act in the classroom and the way I'd get distracted, and he didn't outright say, oh, my God, you have ADHD, because it's not fair to say that, but he kind of said, you know, I think you should look into it, because we're very similar in that respect.  Yeah, I started going to the University of Sydney for I think, three different days, where we ran through all different sorts of tests and stuff, and they kind of tested for everything.

James 

What was it like for you to get a diagnosis of ADHD? 

Will  

I think it was, it wasn't relief, I guess it was more. So just a realisation. It was kind of like, okay, this is the reason behind why, you know, I have issues at school, or why I have issues with mom and dad, or why, why I have issues, paying attention in class or getting things down. And I never really used it as an excuse. But it kind of put into perspective. Yeah. 

James  

Okay. So, let's fast forward a little further. And I think you said that, okay, mental health issues got even worse for you. Yeah. As, as high school continued. What do you think was the primary reason that things started to get harder for you?

Will  

I think a big part of it was the fact that I hadn't improved, I guess, in terms of the ADHD. And my parents were sort of like, you know, if, if there's not something that you can leave school to go do, then we want you to stay in school. And, and that was sort of the case until I got really bad.

James  

With what is really bad mean…

Will 

I just stopped going to school. I think personally, I was dealing with a lot of, like, very severe depression. And that was really difficult, because I don't have mates that I can lean on and say, hey, you know, I, I'd like to talk about something that's, that's, you know, plaguing me, and it's a big issue. And I guess another thing to sort of touch on that I always remember is, in school, we always had RUOK day. And that was a day where it's like, obviously, it's a mental health focus day, you're supposed to ask all your mates about how you're doing. And I would ask quite a few people, but I personally, in all my years of existing, I've never been asked RUOK, RUOK Day, there must have been heartbreaking. Yeah. Well, like, obviously, at that age group, there is a trivial aspect to it, people kind of go oh, you know, it doesn't matter that much. But it does really matter.

James  

Honestly it sounds like at this point in your life loneliness is already quite chronic. So, I understand at a certain point, you actually ended up having hospital stays And was that when you ended up getting a secondary diagnosis?

Will  

It was a very long process. It was it was about a year of where I was going to the children to use mental health service, and I ended up getting diagnosed with BPD borderline personality disorder. It's a bit of a double-edged sword, because it is a really difficult diagnosis. Because there's so much stigma around it. Yeah, so it's still today, there's a lot of stigma.  

James  

And I think it's, if we could, I think we should try and describe it for people, because people may not know what borderline personality is. So, have you got a way that you like to try and explain it to people? 

Will  

Yeah, they're almost like a burns victim in terms of emotions, where their entire body just feels like exposed flesh. Like, it's kind of like your emotions are so raw all the time. And in, like psychologists sort of times I believe it's the most painful mental illness to go through. And that's why they refer to it as the sort of burns victim analogy because every single thing that I process or go through or, you know, somebody tries to talk to me, I can take it the wrong way. And now I'm acknowledging that that's not necessarily my fault, or theirs. Yeah, I guess, yeah, that's how I would describe it. 

James  

Yeah, that's quite a visceral way to describe it. I've actually not heard it described that way. So, I think for me, my understanding one of the core parts of BPD is like a chronic fear of abandonment. And when you tell your story about how lonely you felt as a child, and how that sort of just only got worse as you went through adolescence, that sense of abandonment if that really takes hold, if that's part of those building blocks, that sense of self that you've you've created, You can internalise an idea that well, people are inevitably going to leave me Yeah, and let me down and abandoned me. And that goes to the absolute core of our primal fears, doesn't it? At the deepest level, we all share a terrible fear of abandonment. Yeah.

Will  

And I guess through cams, I think one of the ways that they describe that as is, it's pretty normal thing, you know, if you if you take it back, you know, quite a few years, 1000s of years, you look at a caveman, right? And the caveman is in a group of other cavemen and then all of a sudden, they're being told, you know, you can't be with our group, you're gonna have to fend for yourself, you're gonna have to protect yourself, you're gonna have to find your own water, find your own food, find your own comfort. And that's that, again, as you said, primal. It's taking it back to that, but it's in current day. 

James 

Yes. So yes, it's an absolutely essential survival instinct that we we are social creatures. And that's why we're ultimately talking about loneliness. That's why it affects us. Yeah, that's why it's even an issue. 

James 

Okay. And I think another thing that's worth us talking about with regards to BPD. And loneliness, is that having stable relationships with anyone can be incredibly difficult. You mentioned earlier to me that you are you're in a relationship at the moment. Yeah. Would you consider that to be a stable relationship? Or is that a challenging one for you? Please don't talk about it if you don't want to, 

Will  

No, I would say that it is challenging, but in a good way, okay. Because my girlfriend also has, you know, mental health issues as well. And because of that, we can both kind of help each other. We're both able to acknowledge when one person perhaps isn't doing their best mentally that day, we can go okay, let's, let's help them out. You know, and I don't need to go read a bunch of books, because I've already lived it. You know, I've already done that. And not that I won't try to learn more about their specific conditions alone. But I, yeah, I can relate to them a lot more. Yeah.

James  

Okay, that sounds really good. And I guess one of the other things with complex mental health is, when you're triggered, you're not always going to be able to access your rational thinking and your, you know, great plans and strategies - emotion can take over. So, when that happens, what do you do for each other? Do you do try not to make it worse? Or like what what's your strategy around that when one of us emotionally triggered 

Will  

The way that I describe thinking and splitting with BPD is it is very black and white, but it's almost like a snowball. Once the thought has gotten over the edge of this cliff that's about to roll over this, this snowball is about to roll down the cliff. Once it's over, you can't stop it. It's just gonna go and go and go until it gets to the bottom of the hill and rolls out into nothing. And that's very much splitting is - you have to stop it from happening or try and reduce the chances of it happening. And then when it does happen, you need to deal with the aftermath. You know, there's not much you can do in that moment.

James  

That's right. And that's probably good advice for anyone who is thinking about how do we solve problems, you know, that kind of old cliche, don't let the sun go down on your anger, right? Yeah, resolve it before you go to bed. I think that's sometimes really bad advice. Because if you are heightened and upset, that can be the worst time to try and solve a problem. Because you're in a very, very emotionally primal state, and trying to access your rational thoughts and, and solution or problem solve can be very, very difficult when our brains are like that. So, my advice generally is like, recognise that this is an important moment. But tell the other person, hey, I'm feeling this, I'll come back to this, I need to go and sort myself out and come down first. 

James  

So, it's exciting for you. I think it is this next chapter. Definitely. I mean, I like the idea of talking about your story, right? The story that you're telling the story that you're writing, and it would appear to me the trajectory is one of going from a very vulnerable place now into early adulthood, I know that you said you still feel very, very lonely. But I wonder if the future is starting to look a bit more hopeful. At this point for you? What would you say?

Will  

I'd say, Yeah, I think I've, I've come to the sort of the perspective that I am the commander of my ship, you know, I'm capable of taking my life where I want it to go, I'm acknowledging that every day is is difficult as a baseline. But again, some are going to be way more difficult than others. But others aren't that hard. Other days are easy other days where I can get to do the things that I need to do. And I guess a big thing for me is consistency. where I'm trying to get to my study every week, I'm trying to do new things. I'm reaching out, you know, and that's where I'm at now.

James 

I love that. And you're trying to build habits. Yeah. Right, which, which go against those natural instincts of fear that you've lived with for a long time. I think that sounds terrific. So in regards to loneliness, and social connection, how are things going for you with friends these days? Are they improved? Or are they still quite challenging,

Will  

It's still very much the same. I think, at this point in my life, like, I do have some friends. But I see them very occasionally, we don't talk much. And I guess, again, acknowledging that we're in a period of life where, you know, it's a year or two after high school, and they're doing their own thing. I'm also doing my own thing. So it's not the same as when we were in high school. And really, like my own only person that I spend a lot of time with is my girlfriend, and that that's good. I really do like spending time with my girlfriend, but it can get not tiring because I'm around her but just hiring because I do want to engage with other people my age, you know.

James  

Even just saying that, that I think is really great. You know, you're now at the point where you say no, I really want that. And it sounds to me like there's, there's a little bit more of a shore footing and being able to perhaps make that happen. Now in terms of like, potential strategies for you to consider in terms of where to from here and what might continue to be helpful. I mean, I've got ideas, but I think you you're in this world already, you're doing it day by day. So why don't you tell me what are some things that you think, okay, if I worked on that a little more, that's going to be helpful for me towards improving my capacity for social connection? Or, you know, to feel less lonely? What, what do you want to work on at the moment?

Will 

I think, I still have a diagnosis of general anxiety. And that is something that I've touched on in the past, but I haven't worked on in the same sort of capacity. And that is a big issue with trying to socialise. You know, obviously, here I am talking and I don't sound very anxious, but anxiety can stop me from getting to things that I need to do. It can stop me from, from getting to study, it can stop me from getting to work. And that's something that I acknowledged and something that I work on. But yeah, maybe just strategies around anxiety and socialising with anxiety. Yeah.

James  

Okay. So, with regards to your anxiety and socialising? How do you experience it? What happens in terms of your body and emotions? When you're starting to feel anxious? What do you experience?

Will  

It is an adrenal feeling. It's very much a fight or flight. And weirdly, in the physical realm of fight or flight, I am a very fight person, but in a mental when it's involving talking to people, I am very much avoidant, I definitely flight - run away from it.

James

It's probably we're saying that it's the most natural thing in the world, to have an anxious response to things that can cause us pain. That's, that's essential to our survival. But with anxiety, when it becomes an issue, when it's something clinically that we pay attention to, is when it's causing its own problem, when it's stopping you from being able to grow or be happier or be be more mentally well. So, there's a little bit of recalibrating that's needed in terms of your emotional response to feel safer when you try and connect with people. So I guess one of the strategies you might be familiar with is what we call kind of graded exposure or hierarchical exposure therapy. Have you heard of that concept before?

Will  

Not really, that I can kind of understand that a little bit from the from the name. So…

James  

in its simplest terms, it's just gradually exposing yourself to more triggers that bring on the anxiety, but starting from something that's relatively minor or small, and we learn self-soothing techniques, so that we can sit with that level of anxiety and kind of convince your brain or train your brain to say, hey, you know what, it's not the end of the world, if I call that person. 

James  

If I'm giving you a task to work on. This might be something to consider where you kind of you put one to 10 on a page. Yeah. And next to each one. Write something that would trigger your social anxiety and think about them in terms of easy to difficult - and so when we're talking about hierarchical exposure or grad graduated exposure with, we're going to slowly work through those. Yeah. In the pace that works for you. And the technique here is not to go too fast through that list. Yeah, this is not something you want to rush. Because when we expose ourselves to way more than we can manage, that's when you get almost like a trauma response where you can learn that yeah, actually, that's an awful feeling. Yeah. And it reinforces the idea that that is scary. 

James  

So, I think it's really interesting, perhaps to look at your, your particular unique story of leaving school at 17. Yeah. And then you've started this course. And you mentioned that there's mature age students around you. So, what's like the average age of the people that are around you?

Will  

So, I would say, around like, early, like mid to late 20s, all the way up till 60. You know, like, quite old. 

James  

Yeah. So, in terms of finding like meaningful connections, and even friendships there. Do you feel like it's possible with that cohort or is that tricky?

Will  

I think it's tricky with that cohort.  

James  

So, I suppose some of the, you know, some of the challenges that people might be thinking about here for themselves is, how do I find meaningful connections with like, quote, unquote, my people, when I'm not going to school with them every day? I've left school now I'm in a different environment, it's not as easy. I'm not just surrounded by them. I gotta go find them. Yeah. Which is not always the easiest thing to do. So, what would you say about that? Like, have you considered where your people are, how you want to find them? Or what that might even look like?

Will  

I think, strangely enough for me, with BPD, and depression and anxiety - a constant along that entire time was music. And music was always really important to me. And I, I'm big into rap, I like a lot of underground rap and that sort of stuff. And I guess that's where I see is my people, the people that I can relate with the people that share similar stories to me quite often are people that like that kind of music. 

James  

Yeah, well, I love that. So, in terms of our conversation before about the kind of one to 10, of anxiety level of challenge, if you're thinking about kind of connecting with the rap community, or people that own the same music as how high on the list would be like, chatting with people online, right, who liked the music is that low for you?

Will  

I think it's it's pretty low. It it's interesting. I actually recently connected with somebody online, with the same sort of interests. And we're only just started talking and I wouldn't call us like close friends or even mates. But it's just, that's less anxiety for me. Yeah.

James  

So, is that a good way to maybe initially, chat to people get to know them? Meet them in a kind of non-threatening way? Definitely. And so how long would you want to chat to someone online before maybe the possibility of meeting up in in the real world became something that might happen?

Will  

I'm pretty easy. It's more on them. They could be just as scared as I am. So yeah, I guess I'm pretty open to doing it whenever. But it would be a lot of anxiety. Yeah,

James  

I guess I'm wondering, would that meet up in person, depending on who it was, fall into the intolerable level of anxiety or the manageable level? 

Will  

I would say manageable. 

James

Well, that's great. I think that's really encouraging. So, this is excellent. That like, that just simplifies things a little Yeah, that there is a framework of people that you like, feel connected to feel understood, and you like you have this very powerful thing in common. So, I would encourage that, you know, maybe, maybe if I could ask you in a few weeks’ time, about that very topic, right? The people that you're connecting with in the rap scene, and whether there's any possibility of more meaningful connections or meeting up in person on that level of challenging of that anxiety for you. Is that something you'd be willing to do? Definitely. All right. Well, let's revisit that conversation three weeks time then 100%.

Ali  

So how did your time with we'll go? 

James  

Was amazing, just so brave and so vulnerable and being willing to talk about some very complex mental health aspects of his journey. And yeah, just did an amazing job.

Ali  

And what are some of the strategies that you and will came up with to address his experience of loneliness.

James  

So, Will was pretty focused on the experience of anxiety, and particularly in social sense, just how difficult it can be for him to work through that, that anxiety and sense that it's just so difficult, you know, to overcome this overwhelming anxiety to be able to connect with people. But where we landed was there is that need to sit with that vulnerability to sit with that discomfort and kind of soothe himself through it, and then be able to actually enjoy the benefits. So, he was focused on making connections in the music community and starting online at it sort of gentle level where it's not too confronting or not too anxiety provoking and build that trust and then build towards actually meeting in person or maybe having a shared experience at an event. So that could be something that actually bears a lot of fruit for him.

It's been a few weeks since we caught up. So, I would just love to hear a bit about what you've been up to and maybe we can follow up on a few things we touched on last time.

Will 

Yeah, well, in the past sort of few weeks, I managed to start my placement with the course that I'm doing at the moment, which is student learning support. And obviously that was quite a difficulty being somebody who struggles to sort of socialise, but I managed to sort of push through those initial sort of fears and I made it in and I really enjoyed it. And I got lots of positive sort of feedback from the supervisors that I was there with, and they were very happy with how I was operating and working with my students and that sort of stuff. And yeah.

James 

How did you do that? How did you get yourself in a mindset of the kind of confidence that you needed to go and do the placement and connect with these people?

Will 

I think being somebody who hikes a lot, I face a lot of physical struggles, especially in the last legs of hikes, it can be quite difficult getting up those last few steps with your heavy pack and that sort of stuff. And I kind of used the same sort of, I don't know, mindset that I would get through a hike when I was getting into the office on the first day, just kind of pushing through and acknowledging, you know - uncomfortable feelings are normal. And it is stuff that you come across in life and that sometimes it takes pushing through those more difficult things to, you know, reap those rewards and enjoy the other side of it. Yeah.

James 

That's fantastic. And that's the sort of attitude that you could use in a variety of settings, really, isn't it? Like just recognizing that enduring a little bit of discomfort in order to achieve something good is often the way it needs to be. That's terrific, Will. So, what were the positive outcomes of having that kind of hiker's mentality? What good has come of that for you?

Will 

I think I know that I've got another placement coming up a bit later this year and I'm not as anxious about it now as I was for the first placement because I now know what I'm capable of. I'm actually there to do a job. I'm there to help people.

James 

That's training the brain, isn't it? That next time you come to the same experience; your brain will produce less anxiety. You've done some exposure therapy work on yourself there, Will.

Will 

Hmm. Yeah. I have a little bit, yeah, definitely.

James 

Yeah, so that's really good. So, in terms of your social confidence and connections there, were there any meaningful kind of the start of what could be more meaningful relationships with anyone there?

Will

Yeah, I was actually placed with another person around the same age as me, which is quite unusual, usually in these sort of placements, you're on your own. And I guess it's sort of that shared challenge. So, we sort of bonded pretty quickly. And I still chat to them outside of just placement and working and that sort of stuff. And it was interesting because as somebody who usually is quite anxious and awkward meeting new people because I had this sort of shared difficulty that we were both sort of working on. We had a lot more in common than at first I would have thought you know and it's interesting the type of role that I'm going for being a student learning support officer, it definitely attracts a certain type of person and quite often it sort of feels like that type of person is somebody who is neurodivergent or it has struggled in school or in life and so they kind of have this this want to prevent or assist the younger generation from having the same struggles that we did and it was good to be able to sort of find my own crowd and, and relate to somebody yeah.

James

Yeah, there's so much great stuff in what you've just said. And I think one of the things that stood out to me was that you bonded over mutual challenges with some of these people. Like, I think, do you reckon sometimes we put pressure on ourselves to walk into a room and be likeable and lovable and represented by our strengths? And we worry that people might reject us based on our vulnerabilities or perceived weaknesses. But in truth, those are the things that can really connect us to other people.

Will 

Yeah.

James

Another topic of course we talked about was your connection to music and connecting to others through music. Is that something you've been able to involve yourself in lately? Have you been to any gigs?

Will 

Well, funnily enough, last night, I actually ended up meeting with some mutuals that I met on social media and we went to a concert at the Opera House and they bought tickets on resale and they ended up sitting right behind us. So, it was really, really funny. And, you know, it was this sort of shared experience. You know, I didn't have much else in common, at least at first, I didn't think I did, apart from the music, but then I learned a lot more about them and their story and I shared my story and we sort of connected beyond just music, but definitely I found that music is a good way to start a connection. Yeah. Really good. Really, really good. Yeah.

James 

That's great. And are these people you already knew or were sort of meeting in person for the first time?

Will 

Definitely in person for the first time, yeah.

James 

Wow. 

Will 

To meet complete strangers and to be able to sort of hit it off with them both in placement and, you know, at the concert yesterday, it's pretty big deal for me. And, and it's a big achievement, definitely.

James 

Yeah. Well, I am really interested. Do you think something as a result of these really good experiences has shifted in your attitude to your willingness to do it again and maybe kind of strengthen this idea as like strengthening a muscle, you know, your social confidence to keep trying this kind of thing? Is that, is that right?

Will 

Yeah. I would say definitely I feel like it's almost I'm banking away these positive experiences. And I'm also acknowledging that not every single person that I'm ever going to interact with is going to be a positive experience. But having these, these wins that I can acknowledge it’s really, really good.

Ali

When we’re experiencing a mental health condition, we can isolate ourselves because we think other people will judge us. Or because of the challenges of socialising when we’re feeling symptoms. So, it makes sense that mental health conditions can inflame loneliness. But it is something we can manage. I think James’s suggestion of creating a pathway to connection is a beautiful one. The idea of jumping in the deep end can be terrifying, particularly if you also have anxiety, but if you create steps to connection that can be much safer. Also, it can be useful to take the time to think about the things you enjoy doing, and then build your connection plan around that. If you love exercise, you could potentially look into joining a running club. Then perhaps you could work towards asking people at the running club for coffee afterwards. Or if you love painting, could you join an art group, then gradually work up to asking someone in the class if they’d like to go to a gallery together? If you find people who share a passion with you, you are building on an innate connection.

For more information and tips to help you if you’re feeling lonely, visit we are lonely.com au We Are Lonely isn’t intended to replace individual health professional care. If you have any concerns or questions surrounding your mental health, you should seek advice from your health professional. You can also go to Reachout.com or Beyond Blue.org.au for online or phone support. We are Lonely is produced as part of Medibank’s ten-year commitment to addressing loneliness. I am Ali Walker. This show was produced and edited by Liz Keen and Simon Portus from Headline Productions with support from Cara O’Brien and Olivia Patchett. Our theme music is by Kenneth Lampl. Our team from Medibank include Karen Oldaker, Katrina Weir, Jessica Salter and Rebecca Carter. And project and Production Management by Rob Ranieri and Nick Randall from Ranieri and Co.

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