Loneliness and Autism
Ali
We are Lonely is recorded across a number of Aboriginal lands including the Eora Nations and the Kulin nations of the Gadigal people. We would like to pay our respects to the Elders and custodians of these lands. We would also like to pay our respects to the custodians of the land on which you are now listening.
Orin
Everyone's experience with loneliness is going to be different. And also, everyone's experience with hope is going to be different as well. And just because your hope doesn't look like someone else's hope, it doesn't mean that that it needs to be changed. Like, I think people should be able to be comfortable in their own definitions of things, sometimes, what they are thinking, but if if it is something that's not hurting them, and it's not making their life go to ship, I think just because it's different, doesn't mean it's bad.
Ali
Loneliness is something we all experience at different times. As we’ve said throughout the season, it’s a natural human emotion that’s just signalling we need something. Like hunger tells us we need to eat, or thirst lets us know we need to drink, loneliness is telling us we need to be more intentional about our connections and relationships. That signal is easier to follow for some people than it is for others. Today we’ll be meeting Orin. They’re non-binary and polyamorous, they also live with ADHD and autism spectrum disorder, or ASD, and they experienced trauma as a child. Their life has given them a number of challenges and barriers to connection. This means that today’s episode will touch on issues of trauma and abuse. We won’t be going into any detail, but we are aware this can be triggering. We Are Lonely isn’t intended to replace individual health professional care. If you have any concerns or questions surrounding your mental health, you should seek advice from your health professional. You can also go to Reachout.com or Beyond Blue.org.au for online or phone support.
James
My name is James Van Cuylenburg. I'm a clinical psychologist. Clearly, loneliness is something that affects literally everyone. We all experience it at some time in our life. But I am particularly interested in what is going on in this generation of young adults at the moment with regards to loneliness, because I think they're quite unique in the history of people. Right now, we've got this generation that's been raised with social media that experienced COVID. So, they've got all the usual tumultuous change that goes on for young people, young adults in their early 20s, and even 30s. And they're having to navigate this pretty new frontier, I think. We all desperately need social connection, it's fundamental to our experience of being human. So, I'm particularly interested in what, what is going on here, you know, for these young people who are now trying to navigate the social space as young adults, do they have what they need? Do they have the skills embedded that perhaps previous generations, maybe had more? And because I think perhaps you could argue we were a more socially connected society in different ways, less digital, obviously, more in the actual physical world?
Ali
And today, we're talking about some people with perhaps additional challenges. In the last few years, we've seen a growth in understanding and diagnosis of people with both autism and ADHD. Can you talk briefly about the experience of living on a spectrum and the diversity of the experiences of these conditions?
James
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So obviously, loneliness affects everybody. But for people with complex mental health, or with diagnoses like autism or ADHD, it just can be compounded the challenge that people can face. So people on the spectrum might have difficulty, just understanding basic emotional cues body language tone, things like sarcasm might be quite difficult for people to understand. I think it's worth highlighting that being on that spectrum is neither good nor bad, negative and positive. It's just a different way that the brain can function. And the way that we're thinking about it these days is I guess, there are some certain challenges that can make social connections difficult, because perhaps you are more literal or having difficulty understanding a lot of those cues, but in a lot of other ways that can actually create benefits almost superpowers, if you like of intense focus or have been quite direct, right, which a lot of people struggle with the ability to just tell people how you feel. So, I think one more thing to recognise is the sensory experience of someone with autism that can affect their ability to engage socially, is just sometimes they can just feel absolutely overwhelmed through the stimulation of life and big crowds, and noise and light can just really be very, very taxing. So, you can imagine how that is quite an impediment at times for people on the spectrum to be able to form meaningful connections when it's at parties or loud events, or even going to school everyday school or Yes, exactly. So, it is quite common for people on the autism spectrum, to need time in a day to recalibrate, to allow themselves to just minimise that kind of sensory intensity and then go again.
Ali
And what about ADHD? Is that a similar experience? Or are they different?
James
There are certainly similarities in the way an ADHD brain might operate compared to someone on the spectrum. But it is a distinct diagnosis. So generally speaking, an ADHD brain is a brain that actually there's a, there's something about the dopamine part of the brain, the reward system in the brain that is under stimulated. And this goes against perhaps common perceptions of someone who has ADHD you think of hyperactive people or, you know, really intense people perhaps. But what's actually going on in the brain is that the dopamine reward system is under stimulated. So, they are people who are seeking intense experiences in order to bring their reward system up to what we might call the normal level. I guess loneliness can be triggered because if you think about things like trust or stability or reliability, an ADHD person might struggle with that at times if they're If they're struggling to manage their attention or be respond to messages on time or turn up at that place, they say they're going to turn off to, you know, it can create instability, I suppose, at time. So that can be quite a challenge for people with ADHD. But a lot of the time people with ADHD actually love social relationships and crave it, in fact need it. So, one of the challenges for people who perhaps lack opportunity, they have ADHD, they have this intense need for high stimulating social situations. If they're not given that opportunity, it could lead to some depression or, you know, low mood and a real feeling of deficit in their life. I think you've answered both. Yeah, I, what I didn't do is look at links between the two, but I couldn't think of any on the spot. Okay. It's more just to get an audience members has a family member or something. Yeah. Okay.
Ali
Orin also experienced abuse as a child. We're not going into details around that today. But it is part of their experience with loneliness. Can you explain to us how experiencing abuse or trauma as a child can increase our chance of loneliness as an adult.
James
So, trauma is profound in terms of its impact on all of our development. And no matter how you've experienced it, or where you've experienced, it is going to have an impact. Because essentially, what trauma does is it, it shocks the brain, what we experienced, we're going along thinking, okay, this is normal, this is normal, and then there's an event or an experience or something happens, that can be singular or prolonged, that completely up ends our sense of safety. So, at that point, whenever that is for the young child, or it happens later in life, there's a moment where your brain goes, okay, I need to recalibrate around this reality, so that I never feel this way. Again, it's a protective instinct that happens. So, it could cause you to become incredibly mistrusting of others, that I do not feel safe in relationships with authority figures, or in situations where I'm vulnerable, or could be abandoned or could be let down. So, you know, you can imagine just incredibly, it's this profound idea that other people can't be trusted, or I can't trust myself, you know, one of them. And if you have experienced trauma that causes that idea to take root, it can just profoundly impact all future relationships. Until you're ready to do that really hard work. But yeah, I would say, you know, some of my most profoundly powerful opportunities I've had to work with people have been people who were ready to do that trauma work, and they stepped into that space and so impressive. To see them, you know, be vulnerable and do that work and, and achieve healing. It's profound.
Ali
And then I imagined a total transformation. Absolutely. It…
James
Can be utterly life changing.
Ali
Okay, I'll let you head to meet Orin.
James
Fantastic. Thank you.
Orin
My name is Orin. I am 23. I'm nonbinary. I use they/them pronouns. And I live in the Sydney area. I actually grew up in the Blue Mountains, though. So, I'm a bit more of a mountain rather than a Sydney.
James
I love that. That's great. Okay, so in terms of this conversation about loneliness, today, perhaps you can give us a little bit of what stands out when you think about loneliness in your life and where that's been a particular challenge?
Orin
Well, there are definitely several facets that contribute to loneliness for me, I would say the most one of the most pivotal ones is my disability. I have autism spectrum disorder. And because of the way that I'm presented because of the biological sex I was born with, and because of many other elements of my life, it's been a big contributor to feeling and being lonely.
James
If you don't mind, I'd like to ask you a bit more about the the autism that you mentioned. Can you, can you tell me about that in terms of, perhaps we can start with what that means, what your experience of autism is like, and then we can go back and talk about when you first were diagnosed, or realise that you had it?
Orin
Well, for me, it means that my brain works differently. It's just, it's wired differently. And there are several different reasons why people's brains are wired differently. For example, I also have ADHD, and that has an effect, I have complex trauma, which also will have an effect on where my brain is wired. But with autism, it's kind of more a different brain type altogether. It's a different way that a body can receive, I guess, senses and different parts of life. I have a lot of sensory issues, but as you can tell, I can communicate quite well. And that also brings a lot of elements of loneliness into it as well. Because with being so well spoken, when you're autistic, it basically to other people minimises the challenge. Yeah. Well, the challenge and also the support needs.
James
I think that's really well put. So, in terms of the sensory element of that, is that a factor for you in terms of just the stimulation of being around people, you know?
Orin
1,000% You know, people will normally want to, you know, I'm in my early 20s, report normally want to go out and party and even just go out to places for lunch and even that is draining, and it will basically take me hours to recover.
James
That was quite an intense experience is the recovery time sort of equal to how big the social experiences,
Orin
But yeah, even going up like to a restaurant, for example, that yeah, that will be that will take hours for me to recover.
James
So, there's recovery time you have to factor in, but I imagine also planning, right to think about what, what it's going to be like, predictability is helpful. Yeah, for people on the autism spectrum, but also impulsivity with ADHD. Yes. So, they're almost at odds with each other those those different needs and instincts of your brain. So, I imagine at times, that's very, very tiring. So, what what is the implication for maintaining meaningful friendships and relationships?
Orin
You have to have someone that has a basic understanding of autism because a lot of traits look like someone's just being naughty, even in adulthood. You also have to have a balance in that dynamic as well because again, there's so much stigma around autism, particularly in adults and some people who aren't as knowledgeable will treat an autistic adult like their child.
Orin
I have to find people who, even if they don't understand have an ability to intake information and ability to listen to me, not listen to, I guess, the stereotypes of it all.
James
Another thing I would want to ask you about is sometimes people I've known on the autism spectrum can be a little more direct in their communication. And just talking to you briefly, I would say, you know that that's good. And I would say it comes across as a strength of yours that you are a direct communicator. But not everybody takes kindly to that, do they?
Orin
Um, no. To me, it looks like a game. To me. It looks like they're playing a game of like, social nods and stuff like that. And I know why they do it. I understand why they do it. But I just, I wouldn't be able to. Yeah, no, you know, I wouldn't be able to not be direct.
James
Yeah, I like the way you said sometimes the social scene, it seems a bit like a game. Yeah. And I think that's an easy analogy for people understand that to be on the outside of a game. Yeah. Can be quite isolating. Oh, yeah.
Orin
Like, it's like I'm watching the game. But things I don't want to play the game, right. I can understand the game, I could emulate the game. And I did for a long time. I masked for a very long time.
James
Can you tell us what you mean, by masking?
Orin
I would be aware of what I would say to others, I would make sure it was socially acceptable. I would do things that were asked of me that was not comfortable or not comfortable for my body or for myself. Yes, I would. I would act okay in situations I wasn't okay in.
James
So, I think it's really interesting that you use past tense when you're talking about masking that there was a certain point somewhere along the line, where you said no, enough of that. Now, I'm curious about what that did feel a kind of sense of self and self-worth because it sounds like it's probably a healthy moment. But was there a cost socially and in terms of loneliness.
Orin
1,000%, socially, was probably one of my biggest impacts, I, when I'm trying to regulate myself, I will make an effort to make eye contact, I also would not be as blunt like, I now do things that I'm comfortable to.I make sure that my needs get met as a disabled person. Because it, even though there are still stigmas that, you know, because of lack of knowledge, I don't let that slide.
James
So, so, by masking less, you're less exhausted. You're having less overwhelmed meltdowns. Yeah, but the cost socially, is extreme. Yeah, in that you're now acting in a way that perhaps is less quote uncle It's socially acceptable and more true. Yeah. Which I would argue is better and healthier. Oh, yeah. No, it's better and healthier. But, but as a result, you're coming up against more social rejection. And I guess in terms of loneliness, how lonely are you these days?
Orin
I think it depends on the day, I think. Loneliness comes in all different forms of feeling. And I also feel very lonely at the moment, because I'm kind of one of the only people I know my age, that doesn't use drugs or alcohol to suppress emotions, and had been actively working through my emotional state since I was 18. And I, I, just it's like, I know that it's a good thing. But then sometimes it feels like I'm just so wrong.
James
Now, I'm curious about that choice and why you've made it but the implication of that, right, if you're, if you're meeting people and going on dates, the first thing you say is, let's go get a drink. Yeah. What does that mean for you?
Orin
I usually just say, I don't drink, but you can drink in their usual icon. And if you're not drinking, I won't drink. I always find that really funny. Like just because I'm doing something doesn't mean you have to do it. But I understand, I can I understand the social equation, but I just won't follow the social equation because it makes me live a happier life.
James
I think it'd be great if you don't mind to tell us a bit about your upbringing. And, and again, we can think about that in terms of loneliness. When you think about your childhood, what kind of emotions come up when you think back to the story that you lived?
Orin
I just feel sorry for them. I just feel sorry for little Orin. Just want to give them a hug and be like, you don't deserve this. From well, from the ages of about three to 13. I was physically abused. Okay. Yeah.
James
So, the isolation, I imagine that that must have caused. But in terms of just your, your sense of safety in this world, yeah. Which is a major part of our mental health. Yeah.
Orin
And about, it's definitely a part of us actually feeling connected to other people as well.
James
For people who might be listening who, you know, might have connected so far with any number of things you've said or happy being on the spectrum, having ADHD, being gender diverse, growing up with trauma, they know there's a whole range of, of challenges you've mentioned, would you encourage seeking help through counselling or psychology?
Orin
1,000%. Like, I think, and it's not for other people, I think the thing that people need to internalise in themselves that it's for themselves, that the only like, they deserve to look after themselves. And they deserve to work through things that make them feel unsafe, whether that be behaviour that they they do, or emotions that they feel about themselves, they deserve to get external help, because we are only, we are only human, you know, we can only do so much by ourselves. Yeah.
James
I love this. Because the way you're talking now, there's, to me, there's a lot of self-acceptance in the way that you're framing this. Yeah. And you're not talking about these challenges you've got in your life as impediments to you being able to love who you Yeah. To me, that's one of the most important things in terms of combating loneliness is a healthy sense of self. Yeah. And authentically connecting to that sense of self.
James
The people in your life that you have formed meaningful connections with perhaps we can talk about that for a little bit. Yeah. What has happened that's enabled that breakthrough that has allowed you to feel like yeah, this is this is working, and I feel less lonely with this person.
Orin
I think with all of my connections, I will sometimes feel lonely anyways. I just haven't. I haven't found a sense of stability where I never feel like there's not a moment that I'm not being misunderstood.
James
I think patience is just so important in a story like yours. patience with yourself as well. I think too. recognise that the layers of complexities in terms of growing up with trauma in terms of you know, having autism, and all of the implications and even ADHD, which makes patients challenging doesn't at all. Yeah. To do the kind of work you're talking about is long term, isn't it? Yeah. And having an acceptance that it is going to take time? Yeah. One of the words that we haven't talked about a lot today that's coming up for me is trust. Like, I think when you've gone through something like abuse, as you described, when you're younger, the ability to trust people, it's just really corrupted.
Orin
Oh, yeah. It's that's also another massive facet into my inability to, like, have, I guess, sustainable relationships. And why also feel lonely because I feel lonely in the sense that I can't trust people, like I watch people trusting people.
James
Yeah. And I think that's totally understandable in the sense that that was your story growing up? Yeah. So, there is something in your brain that is protecting you from people by telling you don't trust anybody? Yeah. It leads to a feeling of being incredibly unsafe. But you can see how that is protective in one sense, and also actually causing you great harm in another silly goofy thing and another site. Yeah. It's it's totally, it served you well, back then. I'm not sure how well, it's serving you now. But trauma doesn't allow us to just flick a switch and say, okay, well now just start trusting people. Yeah. Right. It's something that happens slowly. And you have to build that sense of safety. And, you know, you reference child's self work before. Yeah, I think for you would be profoundly helpful to continue to do that work with someone you feel safe with when you feel ready to. To begin, you can't change the past. Yeah. But we can, we can begin to heal and accept what's happened to us slowly, that can create a sense of safety in our adult self. But emotionally speaking, if you're going to, quote unquote, not be lonely. Yeah. You got to learn to trust people.
Orin
Yes, that is such that is so correct. No, like, even it's so funny that, like, after talking this whole time, that is a massive factor, you are so correct. I think in order to not feel so lonely, I need to trust people.
James
I think there'd be value in us revisiting this question of trust. Yeah, in a few weeks, and I'm curious how you might want to work on that. And over the next few weeks without expectation anything's going to dramatically change yeah, in a few weeks’ time.
James
What might be some ways that you can explore this concept of trust and how it relates to your feelings of loneliness? Or…
Orin
Because emotions are quite internal? I think that even possibly creating an external Wait, have to viably see, it might, might be something that helps I can, as I said, I'm an artist, so I could even potentially make a body of work around trust. So, I can actually visually see what it is and what it looks like or the lack of it looks like to maybe then start, I guess.
James
Just to further explore this. Yeah, pretty much. I absolutely love that. I think because this is such a profound topic. Yeah. And it's certainly not one that has any kind of quick fix. Yeah. Allowing the space to be creative around this idea. Yeah. Who knows what that might generate in terms of concepts and new understandings and to help you move forward?
Ali
So how did your time with Orin go?
James
Ah, so great. Orin is an incredibly impressive young person.
Ali
So, if someone listening has been diagnosed with autism, Is there anywhere, you'd suggest for them to reach out to?
James
Or go for support? Often a diagnosis of autism is a process that takes a little while. And it can be something that takes a bit of adjusting to. But I guess it's up to the individual in terms of how they might access support, I guess, it's just a recognition that I think it can be profoundly relieving for people to go, hey, you know what, that helps me understand a lot of what I've been going through, and it doesn't mean that I'm broken, or something's wrong with me, it's just that my brain operates a little differently. And these are my needs. So, I think it gives people a kind of framework to be able to ask for help to tell people what they need, and communicate clearly in the relationships, which for a lot of people can give them a lot of relief. And you can work with a therapist on these things. But I find a lot of people just on the spectrum are pretty good at doing that themselves. And it's just yeah, having that framework can provide some structure and stability for them and how they communicate that to people.
Ali
And I do want to raise here that aren't like all of us is more than their experience with autism. They're nonbinary, they don't drink, which can be isolating in your 20s. How important is it that while we're looking at one part of Orin’s experience, we still see them as a whole person? Yeah, absolutely.
James
I mean, all of the lenses we’re using here to look at loneliness. So, in the case of Rn, yes, we're looking at the autism spectrum. We're looking at ADHD. But yeah, I mean, as you've just heard, Arne is so much more than that, but what I guess really impresses me about them is just the amount of hard work. They're continuing to do all the time, on self-understanding, healing, and confidence and expression.
Orin
I can't believe it. Weeks I have sorry about a timing, and it doesn't it feels like it's either been last week or eight years ago.
James
Yeah, something like that. And I guess that could mean that you're not completely fresh on what we spoke about, because obviously, a lot goes on, but I think we will pick up on, on some of the themes and, and just check in how are you going on these things? Again, if that's okay with you?
Orin
Yeah, of course. I mean, I do remember some of it. Because with this process, we had to think about it during the, the time between and happy for me, you know, I focus a lot on trust and, and what trusts meant to me, and I tried to kind of put that into some art, it was nice to get a visual insight into how scary trust is for me.
James
Do you have any of that that you've got with you today? Yep. Okay, so given that I do, we've got an auditory medium here, I think it would be Yeah, if perhaps you could describe some of what you've drawn. And maybe even what you were feeling was some of your thought processes around it.
Orin
We've got the mug that's up the top, it's on a shelf, and the mug has the word Trust written on it. And below is a hand that is kind of drawn in, like the, the fingers are kind of the swirly pattern, and the hand is coming from a fire. And the fire kind of to me is I guess, hopelessness because when, when something's ablaze, and it's like really ablaze, it's like, there's not much you can do. Except let it burn out. And since the hand is reaching out from it, and it can't reach this shelf with trust on
James
It, it's really evocative. And I think one of the things that strikes me when I look at that is how small in the frame the trust mug is, it's right up in the corner. And the flame takes up most of the, the image that's really evocative to me. So, can we talk about the theme of hopelessness that you've expressed and explored there? If trust is so fragile and small, and the flames do seem so overwhelming? What do you do with that? Do you, is it, is it a matter of acceptance that this is just how life is for me? Or do you use that as a kind of starting point to say, okay, well, I don't want that to be the endpoint. So, what do I what do I take this? Because…
Orin
Of how hard I know it's going to be to build trust, it's been a very on and off process. So most of the time, I just let the flame to burn. But I think what I've found during this process that I want to really start working with my therapist on trust, because it feeds into so many other elements of my life. Sure…
James
Does. Yeah, so yeah, we were talking about trust with regards to loneliness, that loneliness can sometimes be surrounded by people, but there's this barrier that Well, I don't know how to connect with them, you know, on so many levels there. There are barriers here and trust being a major one when you've suffered trauma in your past and hurt. Yeah, I mean, I just know that so many people listening will absolutely relate to that. So, okay, I think that's wonderful that that's something you want to work on.
Orin
I think it will definitely help with. It might not solve anything to do with loneliness, but it might help me connect more because even though you can have a surface level of trust, with people actually being able to have that solid trust where you do feel like that. You are valuable to the people around you.
James
So, I guess in terms of working with the therapist around trust, is that something that you kind of go into with hope that something could shift or not?
Orin
Hope to me feel so dangerous to me because it feels like, I know how limiting not trusting people is, but it's not. It's not built into me. It's, it's basically I'll have to learn a whole new skill. And maybe I'll never be able to do it. Which is crazy, because it's like, I have a partner, and I'm seeing a few people as well. And I've got some really good friends. But even Yeah, even though I've got all those people, it's still in it will continue to until I can really work on that trust, it will still feel like I'm constantly alone in it, because it feels like I can't actually feel like I'm ever valuable to them.
James
Well, I guess it's, it's really honest of you to be able to say these things. Because, you know, you're, you're living example of someone who's a survivor of complex trauma, you know, you're living with ASD, you're living with ADHD, and each of those categories is big on their own, and, and create their individual challenges. So, I think one of the things is accepting that, yeah, you probably will always find this stuff a little bit difficult, because of those complexities. But that doesn't mean that your life can't be full of meaning and connection, and that you can't learn trust at whatever capacity, you know, your mind will let you. Yeah, it is possible. And I think hope is absolutely possible. Because you're doing it you know, you are engaged with a therapist, you're working on it, you're in relationships, you are connecting with people as best you can. The fact that you are proactively working with it and working on it. That is hopeful, isn't it?
Orin
It's Something? Yes, I feel hopeful. But the thing is, you have to be willing to try you have to be willing to try and and it's definitely it's me saying I'm not hopeful, isn't me saying I'm not going to try I am going to try my ass off. It's just I'm not going to sit, I don't want to sit here and go, oh, it's gonna be great at the end. Because positive reinforcement doesn't always help. It sometimes hinders me in the sense of that. If I am just trying to be positive, and then it doesn't happen. I fought twice as hard.
James
Yeah, yeah, no, that's fair enough. And that's also set up by being hurt in the past, isn't it that it sets up an expectation Yeah, of being hurt again, in the future. I…
Orin
Think I just seek stability, more than the hope of everything being okay. If I'm finding stability within trying, then that, to me is a positive thing. And that's, yeah, that's all that's what I could do for now and imply.
James
There's is keeping your focus in the present. And I think that can be a really healthy thing to not to get too carried away with the future and what could or might happen, but to anchor yourself in now.
Orin
Everyone's experience with loneliness is going to be different. And also, everyone's experience with hope is going to be different as well. And just because your hope doesn't look like someone else's hope, it doesn't mean that that it needs to be changed. Like, I think people should be able to be comfortable in their own definitions of things, sometimes, what they are thinking, but if if it is something that's not hurting them, and it's not making their life go to ship, I think just because it's different, doesn't mean it's bad.
James
That's it. That's a great sentiment. And I've got to say, I think you're a great example of someone who speaks their mind and shows that you don't have to have it all sorted, but by being authentic and honest that’s a great way to approach working on connection and building trust.
Ali
Living with a neurodivergent brain in a world that’s designed for neurotypical people has definite challenges. It’s estimated that around ten percent of us have autism, and around seven percent have ADHD. That is a significant part of our society. People who don’t live with either do need to have compassion and respect for people who do. The dismissal and prejudice that people with autism and ADHD experience can be incredibly harmful. For Orin this is magnified by their experience of childhood abuse and trauma. So now they find it hard to build trust. If any of this story resonates with you, we would recommend first of all that you access help. If you visit your doctor, you can get a mental health care plan and a referral to a mental health care professional. Understanding how you feel in the world, and why, is a good first step to building self-compassion. And as James said today, that is an important part of building safe and fulfilling relationships.
If this show has raised any issues for you, remember there are always places to turn, such as Lifeline on 13 11 14; Beyond Blue.org.au and ReachOut.com, which offers dedicated support for young people. For more information and tips to help you if you’re feeling lonely, visit we are lonely.com.au We are Lonely is produced as part of Medibank’s ten-year commitment to addressing loneliness.I am Ali Walker. This show was produced and edited by Liz Keen and Simon Portus from Headline Productions with support from Cara O’Brien and Olivia Patchett. Our theme music is by Kenneth Lampl. Our team from Medibank include Karen Oldaker, Katrina Weir, Jessica Salter and Rebecca Carter. And project and Production Management by Rob Ranieri and Nick Randall from Ranieri and Co.
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