Loneliness in the TikTok Generation
Ali
We are Lonely is recorded across a number of Aboriginal lands including the Eora Nations and the Kulin nations of the Gadigal people. We would like to pay our respects to the Elders and custodians of these lands. We would also like to pay our respects to the custodians of the land on which you are now listening.
Daniel
Is the fact that you're using social media impairing your ability to then when you meet up with friends? Are you able to still relate and talk and connect with them? Or are you thinking about your phone the entire time? That's when it starts encroaching kind of a dangerous territory.
Ali
This is we are lonely and I'm Ali Walker. This podcast is part of Medibank's 10 Year initiative to combat loneliness. When we’re talking about loneliness one of the first things, we often blame is social media. You only have to spend five minutes out in the world to see that everyone’s glued to their screens. But are our phones making us more connected or are they keeping us apart? In this special episode of We Are Lonely we’re going to hear from some of our participants about their experience with social media. And we’re also going to meet an expert in this field.
Daniel
So, my name is Daniel Surkalim. I'm a research fellow at the University of Sydney, and I am the Health Consultant for the World Health Organization's new Commission on Social Connection.
Ali
So, let's get down to it. How much is social media and phones to blame for loneliness? Because so many people are quick to blame them. I know, whenever I ask in a workshop or a big group of people, why do you think Inc loneliness is on the increase? Why is this a international epidemic? The first thing people say is phones, social media. Is that true?
Daniel
It's a mixed bag. We don't have the research to show that we know that there was a spike in terms of loneliness when social media kind of the ads on social media and it erupted. There was a spike. But loneliness trends have been on the rise from before that. Loneliness itself is kind of an interesting area where it used to always be associated with other mental health conditions. If you were lonely, it was because you were depressed because you're anxious. And so, it's only now that we're starting to put a focus on loneliness itself and doing the research. We don't know if being on social media causes you to be lonely, or because you're lonely. You're going on social media, and you're trying to find a connection. We know that quality relations are kind of better in person than social media. So, we do kind of expect a lower quality if you are using it as your main form of communication. However, sometimes that's, that's what you have. That's the only option. If you think about more marginalised communities. If you think about immigrants, or migrants, for example, how are they connecting back home, it's through social media. But yeah, so it's fully this idea that if you are able to have in person connections, that will always be preferable.
Daniel
Social media and relate quality relations is like processed food. The quality is worse, however, it's better than nothing.
Tayla
I definitely think social media is a filler for loneliness. So, people that do experience quite intense loneliness use social media to build up relationships in their head. So, they use it to consume other people’s lives and they can pretend that they’re like a part of the life.
Curtis
I think social media perpetuates these ideas of how to live and if we don’t meet those then we feel less than or inadequate or like we’re not enough.
James
The problem is that’s it’s quite addictive and it’s easy and in place of something else that might be better for us we go for the easier option and find ourselves doom scrolling late into the night instead of getting a good night’s sleep or replacing that face to face catch up with just a chat on social media. It’s when we start to neglect the balance that problems arise.
Ali
You might recognise those voices from other episodes in this season. We asked the participants of We Are Lonely to see if they had any questions, they’d like to ask Daniel - and you’ll hear them through this episode.
Josie
Hi, my name is Josie, and my question is how do you think social media encourages comparisonitis and do you think that comparisonitis contributes to loneliness?
Daniel
A lot of the times and we think of kind of comparisonitis, we have to realise that social media is an algorithmically sorted feed. And so, it also comes down to kind of the interactions with posts that you have. Especially for a younger demographic, where younger adults are definitely more rewards focused and their brain. So, the fact that you have things like likes, you have things like comments, or retweets, or shares or whatnot, those are the things that appeal to a younger brain to say, well, this person is getting hundreds and hundreds of likes. So, they're doing something right. So that's the kind of content where that's the kind of life that I should be living. Whereas in reality, we have to remember that social media is a very highly curated aspect of someone's life. So, although it is very easy to fall into that it is again, a very narrow kind of snapshot of what that person has chosen to put out there. And it's just something that we have to kind of really be mindful of, so we don't fall down into that really depressive or a negative downward spiral of thinking.
Ali
Okay, this is a question from Rhiannon.
Rhiannon
As someone who struggles a lot with physical illness, I found the best connection has been online community, and specifically communities that discuss health issues. And I definitely see the negatives, but we don't really talk about the positives, I'd be interested to know if there's much out there in the research about it, because I definitely see the benefits as well as the negatives.
Daniel
Right. So that's actually a very interesting point. Because at its current stage, loneliness, research is still relatively new, and very much kind of like what Rhiannon – just said, it's this idea that we have so much research telling us, these are the negative aspects of social media. But we have far, far less saying these are the positives. But social media does have its positives, it's this idea that for marginalised communities for those who are physically incapable of leaving their house, but those who are unable to kind of reach out to their friends, because they're rural, or they live far away or whatnot, social media provides a platform for them to communicate, and especially for someone who potentially has a specific condition who doesn't feel like they connect or the people around them might relate to them, they're able to find a community that can and that is strengthen itself.
Ali
One thing that’s inspired me over the course of recording this podcast is the honesty and vulnerability that our participants have brought with them. Amazing people like Sonali.
Sonali
Social media can work both ways in like helping or hindering how I feel because you're often find creators who are not experiencing the same thing but like, like there might be like Indian creators for example or other people of colour who are created and you're like oh they're living their best lives like they look like they're doing good and that's sort of harmful but also really good because you're like inspired by them but then you're like wild am I doing that? What's wrong with me like where did I go wrong here?
Ali
Sonali also had a question for Daniel.
Sonali
How would we best be able to use social media and our phones to combat loneliness?
Daniel
Like Rhiannon before, it’s about being able to find a community, you're able to connect with people there. And that is kind of really important, because that promotes general kind of health, in terms of both social health but mental and physical well-being as well as just because we know that loneliness drives mental and social, physical health conditions. And definitely social media being used as an education purpose. As a tool. It's being used as a way for people to get information to get resources to kind of reach out and get help get services that they might not be aware of, and really kind of help them in their own kind of social connection journey in that capacity. Yeah.
Ali
I think social media really takes you beyond your physical location, your physical space and time. And if you have limitations or restrictions in your physical space and time, it can offer a huge opportunity for you to connect with people beyond that. And that's also its downside because it takes us out of the present moment and becomes this psychoactive experience where you lose all track of space and time. So, it's just that double edged sword, isn't it? Yeah, for you.
Brad
We’re connected to more people than we ever have been literally at the click of a button I can make 10,000 new friends but social media so isolated because the interaction we have we have with it is always individual I'm the one scrolling my feed I've got my algorithm I've chosen to follow the people that I follow so we're constantly comparing ourselves to others or looking at advertisements and tell us to be better or celebrities that have perfectly curated life and it's just not natural to have that amount of information at any given time
Ali
If you haven’t listened to Brad’s episode with Kween Kong I really recommend you do. Brad’s story of surviving a fall of 15,000 feet is incredible, I looked that up that’s 4572 metres.But what’s also amazing is his insight into the experience of loneliness after this life changing moment. Brad has this question for Daniel.
Brad
I'm just wondering, when it comes to social media, what are the signs we need to look for in our body? When we're spending too much time on social media? Is it when we're feeling anxious? Is it when we're not getting enough sleep? Because we're distracted by Tiktok? Is it anything to do with our eye strain? Or maybe there’s just some sort of lack of focus? What are the signs that let us know? Okay, it's time to put down the phone.
Daniel
I mean, I'm a big advocate of listening to your own body, because I think you know, your own body well, especially with something like loneliness and connection where it's so subjective. But it's kind of all those things, we know that loneliness is connected to anxiety, it's connected to depression. So, if you're feeling like scrolling is making you anxious, that is a sign from your body to kind of take a step back a little bit. We also know that loneliness can be perpetuated by a lack of sleep if you're tired all the time. And you're not getting enough sleep, because you're scrolling, that is also a sign from your body to say, hey, your physical health is being affected now, you know, take a step back from it. And so yeah, just honestly listening to yourself. And I think you know, you better than most people can. So just being wary of how much I guess time you're spending. If you're on social media, that is time that you could be using connecting with someone else. If you're finding that all of a sudden, people are just not inviting you out anymore because we don’t go because we’re always on social media, that’s a sign.
Daniel
How easy is it now for us to go. And if we're waiting for someone, if we're waiting to meet up with a friend, what do we do, we pull out our phones, we scroll, that's the natural instinct, it's become second nature to us. So really just being more aware of what we're doing and how we're doing it, and how long it's taking us back could do wonders.
Ali
What would you say are some practical first steps we can take to change how we use social media and our phones. So, they are helping and not hindering connection?
Daniel
Because of the subjectivity of loneliness, it comes back down to kind of how taking stock of your use of social media, how often are using it? What are you using it for? What are you consuming? Like how are you feeling throughout the process? How are you feeling after it? I think it's very easy for a lot of people to say, well, you know, limit social media, like have one hour a day and that's it. But then if you follow that, you see that people go okay, I'll do one hour a day and then the next day it becomes an hour and a half and then becomes too and it just it's not sustainable. And…
Ali
Also, I would say I use of smartphones and social media is not linear like that. I don't think many people will say, right, my time starts now. 60 minutes countdown.
Daniel
Yes, and social media is useful, far more than I think what people assume the stereotype is think about now how much you communicate through social media. We use Facebook Messenger or you DM someone. These social media apps have a lot of functionality associated with it. So, to be fully well, I don't want to use social media, that's hard. But the issue of that is just you got to be wary of how social media plays kind of tricks on the way that it works. Social media has things like persuasive features, things like push notifications, things like auto scroll, things like your bell notifications, or comparing, you know how many likes you have, just being wary that all of these things are drawing you back in. So maybe…
Ali
It is, it is people's jobs, to keep us hooked on these things. Well, people sit around, they are paid a lot of money to come up with ways to convince us to stay or to improve the algorithm, I have, have seen research where the algorithm will work out where you've stopped scrolling on a particular account in the past. So, if they notice your scroll rate, slowed down, that you're about to hop off, they will send you an account that you have slowed down on in the past to keep you on the device. So…
Daniel
Yeah, it's just this idea of being wary that they have all these things, all these features that like you said, it's their job is to make sure you're on there, make sure you're checking. So, is it a matter of turning off notifications on your phone?
Daniel
I mean, just think of how many times you're sitting and you're talking to a friend, and then your phone goes off, and your eyes automatically go to check, you know what it is? So, kind of just being aware of that, hey, they have these things. Can you live without it? You know, can you mute some chats? can you mute some apps, and then again, just being wary of the type of content that you're consuming? If it's all content that's making you feel worse at the end of it? Maybe it's time to kind of put it down or change the algorithm slowly?
Daniel
The one kind of touted way regarding loneliness and social media use is this idea of cognitive behavioural therapy. It's really looking at your own personal expectations. What am I aiming to get out of using social media? Am I getting it through this? You know, and it's this idea of well, am I am I just scrolling? Because, you know, it's a pastime is just kind of like a natural response. It is a pastime, it is a passion, like, you can't fault someone for kind of watching a movie or like a rugby match. If they're kind of spending the same amount of time…
Ali
Is, is it important for people to realise though, that while this might be a pastime, it is inherently addictive, because it's fed with dopamine. It's a pastime, but it's not like knitting. It's not like you're sitting there and doing something that's quite meditative or relaxing for your brain. You're on there for a reason.
Daniel
Yes, especially I guess, for the younger population. Like I said, their, their limbic system is kind of set up to be very responsive to rewards. So that idea of kind of gamification, that idea of like being there, it does inherently produce kind of the spike. But again, just being aware of how you're using it, like you, like you said, knitting it can be meditative. If someone is sitting there knitting for 10 hours a day and not moving from their one spot, that becomes an issue in itself.
Ali
Okay, so I'm interested in how this is impacting us in our relationships. So, if someone is having conversation with a friend, for example, and they have their phone with them, do we know if that friend has a phone in their hand, and we can hear their notifications or see that phone? Well, that impacts the quality of our connection. Because I know that just having a phone on a table, especially if it keeps flashing can affect your concentration, your focus, your engagement with that person?
Daniel
Yeah. So, it comes down to again, how are you? What are you expecting of this person? And what are you expecting of this interaction, if you are going there, just to kind of meet someone for the sake of meeting someone, you don't expect meaningful conversation, you just there to kind of be around a person, probably less impactful. But if you're going there, because you want to talk to someone, you want to connect to someone and you hear those constant pings, and they're constantly looking at their phone, that expectation that you have is not being met. And that's where the quality kind of impacts it.
Ali
Maybe we need to have these conversations at the very beginning. What do you want to get out of? What are you hoping from this have an agenda?
Daniel
Fully it but it doesn't have to necessarily just be about kind of expectations for that interaction, or in terms of having a phone, if you're going out of your way to meet a friend. And you're, you're expecting to have one two-hour conversation with them. And then after 10 minutes, they're like, okay, I'm good, I'm going, that's going to impact you as well. And that has nothing to do with kind of their attention to you. It's that expectation of what you are expecting to get out this relationship. Loneliness is this mismatch between what you expect your relationships to be or how many relationships you want, and your actual level of relationships. So, if, if you're not having those needs met to map, then you're going to be disappointed. And that's when loneliness kind of thrives, that's where it arises. So, if you're going to a music festival by yourself, and you have zero expectations of any social interactions, because you're going into saying, my friends aren't going, it's just me to enjoy the music, you'll have a great time because you have zero expectations of connection. But if you are going to a friend's house, and they are on their phone all the time, but you're expecting them to be more switched on, that's going to be disappointing. And that's where you feel a bit of a disconnect from them. And that's where loneliness arises. And it's a very important kind of distinction. Because you have a lot of lonely people, in terms of people who are very well connected, they have a lot of social connections, they talk to people all day. But if you are expecting 100 really close friends, and you only have 50. That gap is what's going to make you feel lonely.
Ali
I love that. And I've never interrogated that. Because I've always accepted that loneliness is this gap or this mismatch between what you want and what you're getting. But I've never actually gone a step further and thought, okay, so what are our expectations? And are they reasonable? Are they well informed? What are they based on? Yeah, I think it's such an important question, where are you forming your expectations of how many friends? And how much time and even what type of engagement you're expecting?
Daniel
So those are the three kinds of things that we look out for? The quantity, the quality and the diversity? How many friends? How many relationships do you expect? What level of quality do you expect from them? And what roles do they serve in your life that you are expecting them to provide? That's why I guess on the flip side, you can have someone who's completely isolated, they could be by themselves, never leave their home. But because they have zero expectations of connections, they're fine. They're thriving, they enjoy their life, because they don't feel lonely because they don't expect to connect with people.
Ali
So we hear about digital detoxes and people doing things like not looking at their phone for a certain amount of time after waking up to these breaks from our phones have an impact on our connection with ourselves and the world around us?
Daniel
Depends on a couple of things. What are you using your phone for normally? And what are you doing now that you've put your phone away? Are you doing something that's beneficial for you? Are you doing something that is helping you kind of in your physical, mental or social health and well-being? Or are you replacing phone use with something else that is probably just as bad? Right. So, it's, it's a rough kind of balance to strike. Because sometimes it is acceptable. I fully believe in moderation, using social media and phone use is an acceptable way to relax and unwind. And now with everyone growing up, I think the statistic was over a third of under 12 year olds in Australia already have their first smartphone or an iPad. And so, they're growing up with this being so natural and normal. That's their way of relaxing, you know, as they come home from school, or work or whatnot. Is the fact that you're using social media impairing your ability to then when you meet up with friends? Are you able to still relate and talk and connect with them? Or are you thinking about your phone the entire time? That's when it starts encroaching kind of a dangerous territory? So, it comes down to what you have done in terms of what are you doing, when you're using your phone and social media? Versus is that now leeching over to the other parts of your life? Is it now impossible for you to connect with people is it now impossible for you to have a conversation for longer than 10 minutes with someone? Because you know that you know, from tick tock, you're on one-minute cycles? And that's like your attention? That's when you have to be where are you a little bit?
Ali
Is it important also to think about? What's in control? You or the phone?
Daniel
Yeah. And I think that's a scary thought for a lot of people.
Ali
Yeah.
Daniel
Could you if you had to not go on social media for a week? Or would you really, really struggle with that?
Ali
We know now that in places like on public transport, or even in shops, we're missing out on those incidental conversations with people around us. They're happening less because we're on our phones. Do those connections impact how we connect with the world and our feelings of isolation and loneliness?
Daniel
Yes, fully. That's why when the pandemic was so important, as kind of this test run of that idea, it's this idea that when you have to go to work to the office, those incidental conversations, those watercooler talks, you get to meet up with people, you get to meet up and talk with people that you would not think, to contact on social media, if you were not there otherwise, and you catch up with people and build relationships in that sense. The idea that you can, especially in Sydney, at least in the city, if if I walked down, I usually meet someone I know. And you know, people that I might not necessarily have the idea to, oh, let's hit them up and kind of like catch up. But now that they're there, you know, I can connect to them and build relationships in that sense. So being aware of those little micro kind of conversations and interactions plays a large part in kind of how we develop this idea of social well being and social connection. I think people like to think, oh, if you are socially connected, and you know, you're socially healthy and that sense, you are having deep and meaningful conversations with everyone every single day, that's not necessarily the case. It could be that you're talking to 20, 30, 40 Different people a day just as a full Hi, how are you? You know?
Ali
Thank you so much for that illuminating conversation. I feel like we went around the ups and downs of social media and I’m grateful that you are involved.
Daniel
No worries, thank you for having me.
Ali
I think a lot of us would like to have a clear answer on this. Is social media making us lonely and what should we do? Daniel did say the World Health Organisation is working to develop some best practice boundaries. But at the end of the day, it’s really up to you to work out your own strategies. Listen to your body. How does your time on phones make you feel? Pay attention to that and respect it. Think about what you’re replacing your social media time with. If you’re scrolling instead of bingeing mindless shows, perhaps it’s fine. if you’re saying no to face-to-face connections because of social media, that’s more of a worry. Also take control of your platforms. These spaces are carefully designed to make you want to come back. They’re reading you and responding to you. Choose who you follow carefully, try turning off notifications, choose when you respond and when you don’t. This is part of your life, you can control it.
If this show has raised any issues for you, remember there are always places to turn, such as Lifeline on 13 11 14; Beyond Blue.org.au; and ReachOut.com, which offers dedicated support for young people. For more information and tips to help you if you’re feeling lonely, visit we are lonely.com.au We are Lonely is produced as part of Medibank’s ten year commitment to addressing loneliness. I am Dr Ali Walker. This show was produced and edited by Liz Keen and Simon Portus from Headline Productions with support from Cara O’Brien and Olivia Patchett. Our theme music is by Kenneth Lampl. Our team from Medibank include Karen Oldaker, Katrina Weir, Jessica Salter and Rebecca Carter. And project and Production Management by Rob Ranieri and Nick Randall from Ranieri and Co.
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