We Are Lonely episode six

Episode 6 - the grand final

Jemma Sbeg
We Are Lonely was recorded on a number of Aboriginal lands including Gumbaynggirr Country and across the Kulin nations.
We would like to pay our respects to the custodians and elders of these nations.
We would also like to pay our respects to the custodians of the land on which you are now listening.

Holly
Isolating myself has been a habit, and being lonely, I guess, is also - it's become a habit for me.

Tim
I think loneliness is something I've definitely struggled with.

Deidre Anderson
Everyone feels lonely at some stage in their life.

Tessa Blencowe
But when we don't talk about it, when it's left unsaid, that's when it can start to spiral and build up and turn into something much greater.

Ian Hickie
And that has adverse effects on your mental and physical health.

Lisa Mundy
Connection is everything as humans and as mammals like we require that connection.

Jemma Sbeg
This is We are Lonely, and I’m Jemma Sbeg.

Aleks
I still end up prioritising work over spending time with the people I love or something like this.

Jemma Sbeg
We've connected four people in their 20’s with mentors who are helping them build strategies to connect.

Charity
Personally, when I was younger, I had this sense of like family and people coming together that type of stuff, it doesn’t happen these days anymore.

Jemma Sbeg
This show is supported by Medibank.
Being about loneliness, this podcast gets personal and vulnerable.
At times we’ll be exploring difficult themes including social anxiety, bullying and depression.
If this raises any issues for you, you can call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or go to ReachOut.com, which offers dedicated support for young people.

Charity
Arrived in Melbourne yesterday, I am just about to head to the next and last session for the podcast and I’m feeling better than I did yesterday so, tops.

Jemma Sbeg
This is our final episode, so we decided to do the thing that helps us all face loneliness, we brought people together.
Tim, Holly, Charity and Aleks are joining me to chat about the project and their key takeaways from this experience.

Jemma Sbeg
For the last three or so months you guys have been taking part in this amazing project, can you perhaps describe this project to someone who hasn’t heard anything about it?

Aleks
It’s interesting we’re all here now because I’m sure we’ve had somewhat different conversations with our mentors, and we’ve gone down different paths, but it’s been a project that has looked at what loneliness looks like as a 20 something year old Australian. And it’s been explored through a mentorship program and various different filmed interviews and conversations to try and figure out how loneliness works and what we can do to work through it and when it’s good and when it’s not so good and all of these kinds of questions.

Holly
I think for me it’s four people really embracing or experiencing radical vulnerability, this may be me speaking for myself, but I’ve really had to open up to myself and see aspects of myself in the context of loneliness and isolation. Working with someone that’s been paired with me based on who I am and things that make me me, which has been really interesting. It’s been a process of getting uncomfortable to grow.

Jemma Sbeg
I love that explanation, getting uncomfortable to grow. And I feel like also there’s people who are going to be listening to this who have been in a similar state as you all have been. Why did you want to be part of this project, you got an explanation as to what it is, but was there anything really calling you to participate and to sign up?

Charity
Personally, I wanted to be part of the project because for a while I was questioning how I could get a mentor to further myself because I don’t really come from much. So, it was the same old same old, so getting a different perspective from somebody like my mentor who is very straightforward is something that I’m very grateful and thankful for. Thanks Dee. That’s why I wanted to join, so that I can grow independently in my own little unique way without having the background noise of “this is what you should be doing and how you should be doing it”.

Tim
I guess for me, my reason for wanting to do this was that I’ve always been an advocate for mental health. Whether it be wellbeing or going through ill mental health and especially with my own journey of that. I thought it was a great opportunity, I’m relatively new to Melbourne. Half of my time in Melbourne, it is crazy to think about, was during covid lockdown. And the other time, I have been trying to adapt to life, going through uni, working and so it just seemed like the perfect opportunity for me to really push myself to get out of my comfort zone to try something new. To be able to connect with other people and hopefully be able to share this experience with someone else that is able to resonate with me. I know for me it's so important to be able to have that visibility. You know I'm someone that is mixed race, I'm half Asian half white and gay. So, it is really important for me to have that visibility and to identify with those things and connect with that and hopefully have someone connect with that as well and relate to my story.

Jemma Sbeg
That’s an amazing answer that’s so beautiful. Aleks or Holly would you like to answer that question as well?

Holly
I think for me I saw the opportunity and I kind of knew that I was, I wouldn’t say I was at rock bottom, but I was only like a few probably steps up. But I knew that I'd really been through the wringer in terms of getting to a place where I felt really deeply lonely and isolated. Probably more isolated I’d say then lonely, but I guess they kinda go hand-in-hand. I knew that if I could do something like this and be somewhat of a guinea pig and put myself in this position of yeah being uncomfortable for the benefit of potentially other people listening. So that they could grow and like they could see me and see the other people in this and know that it’s okay and gain something from it. I think that was just the biggest thing for me was actually going, I can put myself in a really uncomfortable position knowing I’m going to gain things from it but also knowing that there are going to be people that listen to this that see my experience and can actually see themselves in that experience and use it to feel less shame around being lonely and being isolated.

Aleks
Yeah, I think just to add to all that’s been said so far, I think one reason why I really wanted to be part of this was because a lot of the time loneliness has like a pretty narrow definition. It's kind of understood as this thing that really only happens when a person is by themselves like at home in their bedroom or something. And yeah, this is like a horribly inaccurate representation of what loneliness is because you know you can feel lonely even when you're surrounded by people. It's not just about kind of physical isolation and I think yeah one thing it seems like everyone's commented on is like loneliness being this really complex thing that isn't just yeah you know can is also massively linked with identity in personal history and sexuality and all of these kinds of things. I think being one main reason for me was trying myself to kind of clarify what I understood loneliness to be and also hoping to share be a part of a bigger story about what it's like to feel this very confusing thing.

Jemma Sbeg

These explanations are incredible, I love it. And all very different as well I really like what you said that Aleks around it being a lot to our identity and how each of you have approached this from a very different perspective. A very different point in your lives you’ve all reached the same conclusion that this needs to be talked about more that your story your experience might be a bit of a beacon for other people going through that. So, the next question I have is how is it been you know you came in with this expectation of why you wanted to do this project, why you wanted to be involved and what has your experience been like?

Holly
It’s been so amazing, especially for me, I’ve been paired with someone that kind of could see the forest for the trees for me like they could see the bigger picture. And coming away from this with an idea that ok I went into it thinking I was going to get one thing out of it, and I grew in so many different ways and actually had so many aha moments that were bigger than that one sort of insula thing I was sort of going to go in focusing on. I really attribute that to having got the opportunity to have someone in my life for this experience that could help guide me and kind of walk with me through this. Sort of just pose questions to me but also then just be a sounding board because it just helps you to look at things from a different perspective. Also then having someone that's a bit similar to you or has similarities in different ways that you kind of see yourself in them. There is aspects of yourself you can see that you really like or there are things that you aspire to have that person sort of possesses that then you see that, and you see them you're like I can do that or like I can sort of work through that to gain more of that.

Jemma Sbeg
I love that, anyone else, how’s it been.

Tim
It came at the right time in my life. Yeah, it just felt like it was something that I really needed, and you know in the LGBTQIA+ plus community we have this concept of chosen family. You know not everyone has family that they are able to get along with whether it be because of how they identify who they are what they do. You know my whole life growing up in Perth I was fortunate enough to forge my own family which I feel like the mother of. Coming to Melbourne I definitely lost that sense of community and family and being able to have a mentor that understood those relationships and that journey, and that concept was so important. Being able to be the child in that situation and have someone who can be like OK I need this advice can you please help me and having someone that’s like been there done that like has been so helpful and just yeah, it's been amazing.

Aleks
I think like one thing that has felt really cool about this like the mentor relationship is that like I've been, I see a therapist every week, and I have friends that I talk to about all kinds of stuff, but the mentor relationship feels very different. You know like I'm not sure what kind of therapy anyone here does but at least with the kind of therapy I do I'm not asking my therapist like ‘hey you know how did you get here, what did you do like Xyz in your life in order to get here’. There’s obviously lots of boundaries that come up in other relationships so was really cool to have someone who could ask really direct questions to and have them talk really personally without them being like a close friend in your personal life or someone who you are going to see all the time. It was cool to have this like it felt like there was this new relationship that emerged that was like halfway between a therapist and like a friend who could you know ask for advice and then be like, see you next week.

Charity
It’s been eye opening for me personally understanding my values and boundaries and things like that is something that I never really, I had an idea of, but never really put in place. Because I always worried about what everyone else was thinking and doing and how I could help them. Whereas this really helped me understand that I got to look inwards and figure out that for myself. Like my boundaries and what my values are because otherwise I'm not really going to get far if I'm too busy focusing on the outer rather than the inner, so it's been very eye opening for me.

Jemma Sbeg
When you think back to the reasons you wanted to be part of the project, have any of those reasons changed and has what you wanted from your mentor changed at all?

Tim
When I started this process I was in a long term relationship And so for me it was like OK how do I take on that loneliness while being in a relationship with someone else you know how do we how do I connect to other people while still being connected to a significant other. During the process we’ve broken up so it’s being about OK how can I reconnect myself to have people that I wasn't able to connect with before. How am I able to reconfigure and readjust sort of the course that I'm on to adapt to my new situation and everything. Yeah, I think what I’ve needed it has been changed, but even though it's changed it's still relevant to each other the things that I needed before definitely will be things that I need again in the future. And the things that I need now will definitely be able to carry on and help me with that process of taking those skills what we've done what we've learnt and reapplying it again in the future. And as for what as for the mentor I'd have to agree with Charity I think it's just been something that hasn't really changed but grown sort of like my own personal journey and my own personal needs with this it hasn't so much changed as it's adapted and evolved.

Jemma Sbeg
I’m going to linger on that point about the fact  that you went through a pretty massive life change in this process, I think our relationships are a pretty massive part of our identity and our perspective on loneliness you stated two different perspectives. The feeling lonely in a relationship and wanting to figure out how to connect with people then suddenly not having that person. Do you think that being in this project and being involved, meeting your mentor, was that mentor helpful?

Tim
Oh yeah 100% like I know In my relationship it was. It was for me I'm very introverted he's very extroverted so I was like ok I can rely on you to talk to everyone. You're going to do anything that involves people you're doing it and then I can just slip in once like you've opened the door a bit for me. And being able to take that and go ok we’re on our own that’s not a problem but also being able to see that I also have that ability to do that myself. It can be really difficult, you know, people are scary. Part of my journey was ok just go back out clubbing again like go enjoy like the nightlife and I just remember one of the most profound things that has happened to me has been being out these club just sitting down on the couch like watching everyone sort of go past and living their life and enjoy themselves and almost like feel invisible. You know in this Crowded Space you know there's hundreds of people around you and you feel lonely and you know so alone but there's also something beautiful in that.  There was I think I got a lot of clarity and a lot of self-reflection in those moments and it stopped me from really stressing and worrying about too much for myself and then being able to think about the bigger picture.

Jemma Sbeg
That’s incredible. I know I love how invested we are in each other, and you're, well I’m invested in them as well. Alright I’m going to give, Aleks and Holly, do you guys want an opportunity to answer that question of how have your expectations changed?

Aleks
Yeah, I have been thinking about it. I think what has changed for me is that I think when I started the project, I like I think I thought about loneliness in a lonely way. I was like oh it's this really solitary thing you know. You have to go through it yourself you know. You can get help but ultimately it takes a lot of personal courage and strength and whatever to push through there's boundaries and stuff like you do. But then yeah I think over the duration of the mentorship I came to realise that it's like much harder to try and do it all by yourself and like this mentor relationship really made it clear that like for things to happen and to realise what it takes to you know improve your wellbeing and become comfortable in situations like going to a café and being by yourself and being like, I am here by myself. It's really hard to get through these things when you're relying on like the voice in your head and the thoughts you have because you know you can really twist things and warp things. And so yeah I think um a shift that I have noticed has been that I have become much more aware of like how much easier it can be to work through things when you are doing it with others and especially something like loneliness because it can really compound and you can really make yourself feel alone. When you're feeling alone you know you can be like okay I'm alone it's just me I'm by myself. I'm sure all of us through our mentorship have realised that like there's so much that can be gained from talking to, from bringing other people into the experience as well. So yeah, that’s something that has changed for me.

Jemma Sbeg
Loneliness is one of those hard feelings we normally feel like we have to do by ourselves. The thing about loneliness is you feel it alone and you can’t reach out to people so it’s kind of this cycle. But letting people in is this universal fix, the problem is also the solution if you’re isolating yourself sometimes putting yourself out there can be the fix. But it’s not what you always think to do so I love what you said there Aleks about inviting other people into the fold to almost experience it with you rather than feeling like you have to do it alone. Holly?

Holly
I think for me, when I started obviously I came into it really hoping to gain something from it for other people and I think that's been a really common theme for me in a lot of areas of my life. It's always been an outward thing even with this idea of loneliness and isolation for me I was like ok I'm going to do this and it's going to help me change external situations. Iit’s going to help me change things outside of myself and I think through doing it I've actually realised it's an inward thing it's it's I don’t want to say it's a me thing but I didn't need help with external things I needed help with understanding myself. And understanding the way I talk to myself and the way I see myself in situations and in other like in relationships because that was what for me has been a massive thing about you know restricting me and keeping me feeling stuck.  I think as well I didn't have any expectation of having a mentor. I didn't really know what I would get out of it or you know what I’d sort of gain from that. I didn't really understand the purpose of it to be honest coming into it because I didn't see how someone else could help me. Like if I couldn't help myself to not be lonely how could someone that doesn't know me help. How could someone else have any impact  on my journey when I know I've been myself and with myself for 25 years and I haven't got anywhere so how would they help me. And in through doing this I realise like that's actually been the most incredible piece because they've been able to help me see myself better and see aspects of myself and empower me to really into myself in different ways that I hadn't felt comfortable to do before. And I think through having a mentor like right now it's helped me learn that I can actually ask for help. I can ask for things that I need and it's giving me a relationship where I've felt comfortable to use my voice to really ask for what is important for me. And that's been really really amazing.

Jemma Sbeg
If someone listening to this said I feel a real deep sense of loneliness, what would you say to them now after having been through this project and this process?

Holly
It seems silly to say but saying you're actually not alone in feeling lonely. Like despite, you know you can't ever say your situation is going to be the same to anyone else but I can't remember who said it to me through this process but the statistics of however many people in their 20 is the majority actually experience loneliness really regularly. And that for me made me feel less alone in itself because I could think about the fact I could be in a room and instead of just feeling like I'm you know that one person the 1% that feels lonely when in fact there is so many other people I can connect with through that loneliness. Just telling someone you're not alone in feeling lonely like but yes it's ok to feel like. There is so much shame and stigma around the feeling that we don't talk about it and I think that the thing I’ve learnt the most is that you actually need to say, you need to talk about it because you're going to connect with people even through doing that. Because I can always guarantee you whoever you speak to is going to say you know what, me too, I felt that before. And like, I'm getting goosebumps saying that but I know the power in that. Even since doing this I've been able to look at people in a different lens and go you know what, they've probably felt the same thing I'm feeling right now. If they're not even feeling it all right now there's going to be a part of them that will resonate with how I'm feeling.

Jemma Sbeg
I completely agree it was a big part of why I wanted to do this project as well. Because I was feeling incredibly lonely, and I was let’s talk about this. It's such an amazing initiative to be able to speak about it more, and you spoke about the stigma, I do think there's a huge stigma. Do you want to speak about that a little bit more or not really?

Holly
Yeah, I mean I think stigma I think yea I will speak from what I think about it but it’s the you don’t talk about that like you said it’s the people that sit in their room by themselves that you know have no one. That the stigma is that there's real shame around it's almost embarrassing to say I feel lonely there's just a stigma. I mean you know the media and the way they media we consume as I mean as a female for me it's that idea that girls have these amazing friendship groups and that you know you have clicks or you've got a big group of friends or you know there's always perceived as that one person that's just on their own.

Jemma Sbeg
I’m going to pose the question to you three as well. Thank you for your wonderful answer. If someone is listening to this and they’re feeling a sense of loneliness, what would you like to say?

Aleks
As Holly was saying there's so much stigma attached to it like this word is so commonly thought of being this really bad thing. You know you can't ever feel lonely always have to be with people you always have to be socialising you know you have to have something on like Friday Saturday Sunday night. You know there's like yeah this is real life people many people feel this way I felt this way before and I think moving beyond this like begins with like getting it out and saying it to someone. Because yeah I think a lot of the time when something when you're able to like articulate something you will be able to separate yourself from it in some way so yeah I think that for me feels like yeah one of the biggest things about loneliness. Like just just try and say what it is that you feel to someone else or try and say it to yourself in the mirror and like feel that you know feel this like really strange thing that happens when you put something into the world that you're feeling. And you like OK well now it's been said you know is that actually what I even feel like also feel this out so much else comes up.

Jemma Sbeg
And getting it off your chest, once you get the courage to say it it’s a lot less oppressive and a lot less scary, so I really like that. Tim, would you have anything to say to someone?

Tim
I think it’s important to at least try and understand yourself. You know when I started like I said I was in a relationship and as much as I thought I knew myself, when you're with someone else it can be difficult, you get so intertwined that it can feel like you lose a part of yourself or you forget who you are. So I think it's so important being able to connect with yourself before being able to connect with other people. After I was able to do that, I think, and understanding the ways in which I connect best with people, you know I had some shock therapy and went to the club. And went no, this is not for me I can't I can't meet people here I can't connect with people here the people that are meet here like it just doesn't feel right in this situation. But you know taking that and removing and going ok let's have a sit down let's have a chat or something and going ok this is what feels right to me, this is what I like, this is how I like to connect. And then starting to build those up, you know having any sort of relationship with someone and that fear of rejection or being left is a great one. Just being able to take a step back taking it slowly recognising it for what it is and appreciating the moment -  people come and go but being able to hold onto that feeling and go ok yes they left yes they came in there's going to be more people like that. There's going to be more of that unfortunately. Nothing in our lives is permanent other than ourselves so yeah just doing just do your best to be able to connect with yourself and then take that to connect with other people.

Charity
Wise words.

Tim
Thank you.

Jemma Sbeg
Would you say something similar?

Charity
If somebody was feeling lonely what I said to them is I've got like a little catch phrase that I've been saying since this project and it's you got to get uncomfortable to make it comfortable. And that's the biggest step for me personally because there's people out there that can't leave the house they can't leave their room because of their mental health all because of whatever is going on in their life. Whether it's a chronic illness or something like that so stepping outside for like 20 minutes into the sun and experiencing that. That way if you can't go to a cafe step into a cafe like if you could be there for 2 minutes congratulations you stepped into the cafe. If you're there for 20 minutes awesome well done if you're there for an hour like hats off. Do you know what I mean? Like making that step it is something big that to other people isn't massive but to that person individually is huge inner everybody's got something different going on with in with their lives. And so all I would say is just take that step and make what's uncomfortable comfortable because then there's going to be a new little thing that you're going to have to get over at some stage a new challenge.

Jemma Sbeg
Holly would you like to answer that question as well?

Holly
I’d just say for me like one thing that's changed probably during this podcast is my I've gotten back into yoga. And that was something that was really massive in my life before I got sick. But yeah through that I stopped and I think then obviously there was a massive rise in online classes doing workouts doing everything from home really. I think, if you think about what you're capable of doing from home now I can't really think of anything that isn't like this you can do everything from your home on your phone and so I fell into the habit of only ever doing yoga on my computer at home. I think that probably stemmed  obviously you know from being ashamed of going to a class in person not knowing anyone and that reinforcing how alone I felt. And I think it was easier for me and it felt safer for me to do it from home but it was actually like a weekend ago I went on a 2-day yoga retreat there was 10 of us. Everyone was a lot older than me so it ended up being an amazing experience. I sort of touched on it with Tessa but I went into it thinking, you know what, I'm doing this podcast of course I'm going to make friends. I'm like a friend magnet now like loneliness, like I've got this that's not something I experience anymore. Didn't make any friends, but you know what, but I say that because that shows how far I've come because I actually would have been so ashamed and so embarrassed that I hadn't make any friends in that.  And I left I was like you know what I didn't make friends but I experienced two or three two and a 1/2 days of connection. I experience connection with people that have similarities to me, we shared interests and we just connected. We had conversations, I felt seen I felt heard. Did I make friends, no, did I feel like my cup was full because I spent time with other people in a sense of community bonding over things that we share that we both love, yeah. Like I came away going into when I don't actually have to make friends I can be around people that care about me and want to know me because we both like a similar thing. And that feels really good as well and so it's allowed me to kind of step into going back into in-person classes. And I think that something is really important as well like going and doing things in person if you don't know people because being around people even if you don't talk to them you feel less alone. Even in that and like that's been something that's changed for me that has been really good but I don't think I would have done otherwise.

Jemma Sbeg
But also it's like a whole new perspective on connection, like previously you were thinking about connection is how many friends you had, in only making friends and having them stay in your life and now you realise that there are other ways to receive that. Rather than just talking like, I made another friend, that’s 6 that's 7 like.

Holly
Making friends or your amount of friends doesn’t actually equate to your worthiness of connection yeah, the amount of friends you have doesn't then mean you can or can't be lonely. Even if you have a heap of friends, you can still be lonely. Everyone gets lonely, I think that’s the thing, it's actually it's human but were also not designed to be alone like biologically we're not designed to be at home doing everything by ourselves.

Tim
We’re social creatures, we need to be able to talk- connection, we need to be able to communicate and yeah.

Charity
Yup no, I feel that. Hm.

Jemma Sbeg
That is the end of We are Lonely Season 2.
If you want to know more, you can see videos of our participants on the We are Lonely podcast YouTube channel.
There’s also heaps of resources and information about loneliness and connection at WeAreLonely.com.au.
And if you’d like to be part of the next season, we’d love to hear from you.  You can find a contact link at WeAreLonely.com.au
If this show has raised any issues for you, remember there are always places to turn, such as Lifeline on 13 11 14; BeyondBlue.com.au; and ReachOut.com, which offers dedicated support for young people.
We are lonely is produced as part of Medibank’s 10-year commitment to addressing loneliness.
And we want to thank everyone who has been a part of this project, most importantly our participants Aleks, Charity, Holly and Tim.
Also, their amazing mentors - Barry Conrad, Deidre Anderson, Tessa Blencowe and Sean Sxzps.
A big thanks to our reference group who have shared feedback and advice throughout production.
I am Jemma Sbeg.
This show was produced and edited by Liz Keen and Simon Portus from Headline Productions.
Music is by Kenneth Lampl.
Fact Checking by Jessica Choong and our team psychologist is Alison Howarth.
Our junior Producer is Monika Vidugiryte.
Our team from Medibank include Karen Oldaker, Nigel Davis and Demi Michael.
Project and Production Management by Rob Ranieri and Nick Randall from Ranieri and co.