Loneliness and Finding our Tribe
Ali
We are Lonely is recorded across a number of Aboriginal lands including the Eora Nations and the Kulin nations of the Gadigal people. We would like to pay our respects to the Elders and custodians of these lands. We would also like to pay our respects to the custodians of the land on which you are now listening.
Gurnoor
I had to really open my eyes up and be like you know people can actually really connect with you and have similar experiences to you without you know being an exact copy of you.
Ali
Gurnoor found strong and long-lasting friendships at school, people she is happy to still call her friends. But she also found that over those years, she muted part of who she was. Through years of mental health challenges and work in therapy, she’s now learnt to celebrate who she is and she’s ready to be seen, she’s ready to find her tribe. This is We Are Lonely, and I’m Ali Walker. This Podcast is part of Medibank’s ten year initiative to combat loneliness.
Gurnoor
Yeah, for sure. So, my name is Gurnoor. It's in my language, Punjabi, it's pronounced Gurnoor. And my name means light of God. I'm 21 years old and I am a psychology student I am of Indian Heritage and what drew me to this project was probably I love podcasts first of all and just the subject matter of loneliness I was like yeah, I, I get it. I identify with this I think for me like it was very much leafed into my mental health because that's struggled with mental health for so long it was like oh yeah loneliness is actually a pretty big part of this and I guess the fact that space was being made for me like I was like yeah in itself makes me feel not alone.
Ali
Gurnoor’s mentor is Dr Quah Ee Ling - a Senior Lecturer and Academic in sociology at Western Sydney University. She moved here from Singapore 20 years ago. She is also a fire dragon feminist.
Ee Ling
It’s a lifelong project of trying to figure out how to have a certain kind of ethics, a certain kind of feminist ethics, to imagine a different world that is more sustainable, that's more equitable, and how can we reorganise our relationships so that people who are not supported by the systems will be on the same path as us? It also draws from my understanding of my own cultural heritage and what fire dragon symbolises in, in white settler colonial societies that fire dragon off dragon lady always carries racialised stereotypes. And what does that mean to leave with the racialised myth, and racialised stereotypes in our migrant woman's life? It's a lifelong project.
Ali
So, we've seen an increase in young women feeling lonely in Australia in particular, why do you think that is why are young women feeling lonely?
Ee Ling
I think that sense of loneliness is a human condition that plagued modern life now. But it is also experienced very unevenly, and unequally among groups of people. While young people generally will probably feel a great profound sense of loneliness, because of the kind of world that they are inheriting now, you know, that that it will never be enough. A lot of things that we used to get become more and more unattainable for them. The economy will just keep growing to the point that you know, housing becomes inaccessible, and under employment is a big issue. So therefore, it just worsens that sense of loneliness. For young women, I don't think it's just young women, but also young women of colour young, migrant women, young queer women, young, non-binary women, gender queer women, when it is when they're also faced with other intersecting structural conditions like racism, sexism, xenophobia, queer phobia, naturally, it's just going to make their everyday life even harder. And when there's no support systems, when there's no support services, when the state decides to become more and more disconnected with from supporting people, then then I think it's just going to be really hard for them and therefore lonelier.
Ali
Okay, I'll let you head to meet Gurnoor. Thank you.
Gurnoor
When my mum was pregnant with me, my parents actually lived in Kenya, for my dad's work, and I think my mom really saw that, like, there are some really unsafe places in the world to have a girl child to raise a woman basically. And I think that was also a big part of why Australia felt like a good choice. We already had some relatives here. So yeah, I was very young when we came here. But I was born in India, but it feels like I was born and raised here.
Ee Ling
Growing up did you feel like you’ve always been here? Did you feel like just any other Australian child going to school? How was it like for you growing up?
Gurnoor
In primary school? Definitely, there wasn't as many kids who looked like me. Like, even if they were from India, they weren't from the same region as me. So yeah, it was definitely really difficult. In my first few years at school, I was very conscious about, like, my food and my lunchbox. And then all the Indian girls who went to my school sort of naturally, like we're drawn to each other, because, you know, just for that sense of comfort and familiarity. But we would almost just friends because we all looked like each other. But that didn't necessarily mean that we got along as people. But when I went to high school, pretty much all my peers were Indian. And there was like, a few people who were also Punjabi and like, it was just such a big change for me to just like, I was looking around, and everybody looked like me. And everybody had like, their, you know, ethnic dishes in their lunchboxes. And like, from then on, I just feel like, I've lived in this bubble of just feeling like I'm accepted, and I'm just like a normal person. And then again being at this stage in life where I've surrounded myself with people who look like me for years and years and then having to stop myself and be like hey like you know there is actually other people who you can connect with for example I started going to a new hairdresser last year and now I mean my hairdresser are best friends and she's of Samoan Heritage and I just never would have expected that me and her would click and I think that's where I had to really open my eyes up and be like you know people can actually really connect with you and have similar experience just to you without you know being an exact copy of you
Ee Ling
So growing up as a teenager that you wouldn't have encountered that sense of loneliness. Am I right? Do you think?
Gurnoor
I think I think from like that sort of immigrant perspective, no, I didn't. But I think, like, what I did, like where I did encounter, loneliness was in my mental health struggles, which started, like pretty early on for me, in year seven or eight. I started like, this massive battle with my mental health. And that was one of the most isolating experiences, I think, because I'd finally gotten into a space where I felt like part of something, and I felt like everyone else was like me. And then when I started feeling all these like, massive emotions, and I didn't know how to make sense of them. That was again, I was again isolated, and nobody could understand - my family couldn't understand. And then I was, I guess, I felt sometimes, like I was put back in that space of just feeling really alone. Yeah…
Ee Ling
Yeah. I mean, just hearing you speak about how mental health could sometimes trigger that sense of pronounced loneliness is something that I feel that I could relate to. It's hard, right? When you are in that space, that and there's not a lot of discussion or education around mental health. And I probably, you probably could relate to this, probably one of the worst comments that we can get is, you should just let it go. You know, practice mindfulness. Yeah. Do some yoga, or, you know, and is this kind of dismissive remarks that we get that can sometimes make you feel that you are not understood? That could then trigger a sense of loneliness? Do you think that that could be there's something that you yeah…
Gurnoor
I mean, I feel like, in today's day and age, we talk about mental health, so much more than we did, you know, seven or eight years ago. So, for me, like, it was this really weird time where there was conversations around mental health, but there was still so much stigma. And even teachers and even school counsellors, and you know, they just say, just, you know, here's a breathing technique or something like that, you know, and it's like, now being 21. And having been in therapy for so long, those strategies do work. But you can't give those strategies before you validate, you know, how the person is feeling. And to actually understand what their struggle is. And only probably very recently, in the last two or three years have I been able to go down that journey of sitting down and thinking about the why, why, you know, did I have those mental health struggles, what kind of things led to me feeling that way? And that has been the most healing thing.
Ee Ling
I really, I really feel you and really hear what you're saying about how mental health conditions that we struggle with often leads to profound sense of loneliness, because not only that the condition is already giving us all kinds of symptoms that are that are difficult to manage on a daily basis, but also that that disconnect that come from people who, who, who, who don't get it and or who are not able to give us that kind of validation that we've so need in that situation. Yeah, yeah. So how has it been for in terms of, you know, coming out with your own strategies to cope with that loneliness that's attached that's associated with mental health conditions.
Gurnoor
I mean, for me, like, again, it's been a really long journey, journey of being able to validate myself and say look at everything that you've overcome, and that in itself has just served as such a strategy to now be able to give myself so much more compassion and grace. And yeah.
Ee Ling
Yeah, kudos to you. I mean, that sounds really, I mean, that's amazing. and, and you have come to a point where you are actively, you know, seeking out different strategies to embrace yourself and to acknowledge all the hard work that you have put in, you know, Yeah, that's just, just so beautiful. So, at this point, what are some of the situations or issues that feel that make you feel that you are, at times struggling with loneliness or a sense of isolation?
Gurnoor
I mean, for me, no matter what's going on in my life, loneliness is such like a daily constant battle. And I think for me, I used to think that loneliness meant that you are really disconnected from the world around you. But I've come to understand now that if you feel lonely, it doesn't mean you don't have deep, meaningful connections in your life. because I am in a position now where I know that I absolutely do. Like I have a beautiful support network of friends and family. it's just the fact that I guess we only really have ourselves at the end of the day. And, you know, we all sort of are trying to live our lives and do the best we can. and, you know, nobody can quite be in your shoes. And it's, it's lonely, you know…
Ee Ling
It's a human condition that plagues everyone, we are all caught up in this race, you know, the race to chase for different things, right. But it does affect us unevenly and unequally, some people more so especially like, like us women of colour migrants you have to live with the fact that you are a minority in white, dominant settler colonial society. and it really just shaped our, our condition. Daily, right? And we can't quite make sense of why are we even feeling lonely, but it is there.
Gurnoor
There's just that undeniable, like underlying loneliness. That just comes I think I often like to think like, it's a generational cultural thing, where that loneliness has been passed down to us, you know, from our ancestors and the women than like the lineage of women that we come from, we don't choose, like, we don't choose the place or the family that we're born into. That's just, you know, something we have to navigate. But yeah, I just really love looking at it in that way. Especially I think, as a young person in, you know, living in the times that we are, there's that constant pressure of what kind of world are we going to leave behind and so much powerlessness and hopelessness in, you know, existing, and just thinking like, well, there's nothing I can do to change things, you know, like, we get so stuck, we recognise all the things that are wrong, and all the things that are problematic, you know, all the places where the world could and should change, but just feeling so powerless, and there is so much loneliness in that, I want to mention that, you know, initially, I wanted my mentor to be someone of Indian descent, because I thought that they would be the only person who would understand me. And so, you know, when Liz suggested you, and she sent me your profile, and I was a little bit weary, I was like, I don't know, like, you're gonna get it. And then we had our first chat. And like, I just remember being like, oh, yes, like, this is so good. Like, this is perfect. And so, I think this has challenged me now, to look a little bit outside of my own community, I think for me, the opposite of loneliness, his connection. And so I think whether that means connection with yourself, connection with others, you know, connection towards a cause, you know, to not get stuck in that thinking of, Oh, I must be the only one who feels this way or, you know, nobody else understands the struggle, because chances are, if you put that word out, and if you if you verbalise how you're feeling there's going to be so many other people who feel the same way. Yeah. And the connection in that is so powerful.
Ee Ling
Yeah, so for me, finding those connections are important. So, coming to Australia was very incredibly lonely at first. Not having any friends and also that disconnect with my physical and social environment. Just make it so hard and time many times. I just want to pack my bag and go back to Singapore. But over time, I also feel that I managed to find my tribe. Yeah, I've managed to find my people, people who may not necessarily come from the same background or are of the same age, even - but people who share my politics, people who share my aspirations and hopes for for the future and people who get it. And just connecting like that with people. It just makes that day so much more bearable.
Gurnoor
I'm sort of still on that journey, where I've gone from, you know, not being very outspoken about my politics and my values. Because in high school, I was shut down. I used to want to, you know, I was angry at the world. And I wanted things to change. And I was dismissed as being over dramatic and too emotional. And I'm slowly learning again, to be outspoken and to be loud, and to be heard. And so while I have like the most beautiful, amazing friends, I'm still looking for spaces, where, you know, people share that passion and that hunger, and you know, the sort of values and opinions that I do. And I think that is like the next chapter. For me, the next big thing that I'm going to try to combat this, you know, unavoidable condition of loneliness.
Ee Ling
What would you like to achieve in this in the next three weeks so that when we meet again, for our next session, our last session, you could, you know, share a bit about what you have done.
Gurnoor
I mean, for me, I think I want to put some energy into looking for a space or maybe even trying to create a space and to reach out, you know, to have some sort of, you know, gathering of a community. One thing I did that I think is quite interesting. Last year, I was like really struggling with loneliness. And I decided to download the app like Bumble Bumble BFF, to find a new friend, because I hadn't really made a new friend since I graduated high school. And so I jumped on the app, you know, lots of swiping left and right. You know, and I did gravitate towards the Indian girls, I will say, but I ended up finding a friend through the app, I didn't go in really expecting much, but she's now one of my closest friends. And she's so fiercely herself.. I definitely think you’ve got to put yourself out there.
Ee Ling
Well, when, when I talk about joining events, or going for book clubs, or reading groups, or you know, just, just storytelling sessions, It is a lot of hit and miss, to be honest. Yeah, a lot of hits or misses. Sometimes you join something that you just feel that Oh, no, you know, I don't really have chemistry with this group. Yeah, it just is. I'm not really in sync, like,
Gurnoor
Energetically, it has to feel right.
Ee Ling
And that's okay. And we move on, and I have a lot of misses. So, it's not that I always hit the jackpot and find the right group. It doesn't always work all the time. And it doesn't always work in every season of my life. Oh, yeah. I just go with what I feel that my body's telling me what I need in that season.
Gurnoor
Like you don't have to be best friends with these people. But just that feeling of I belong, and, you know, I'm understood and I'm seeing I'm heard my feelings are valid, like, that just does so much for you as a person for your soul.
Ee Ling
Sometimes I just attend protest marches, just to soak in, just to feel that, hey, I'm not the only one who thinks that. That is rubbish. Yeah, that even when I'm working with 1000s of strangers, we all believe in the same cause. And that helps me feel a bit more hopeful.
Gurnoor
I love that, yeah.
Ali
So how did your time with Gurnoor go?
Ee Ling
It went really well, she's a very vibrant youthful and energetic young woman she's in a good place she has a good plan and I'm really excited for her that she's very well supported by her friends and I healthcare Professionals and her family.
Ali
So, what role do you think mental health has in loneliness?
Ee Ling
I think that some of the young people have come across, or some of the people that have come across who struggle with mental health conditions have also complained a profound sense of loneliness. reason because that we don't, you know, we have not gained a good knowledge of mental health condition and with many, many sufferers are still being dismissed with very patronising comments like, oh, it's all in your head. Why don't you be more positive and there's this positive psychology myth, just populate your social media feeds all the time, demanding that you, you try a bit harder to be to fix yourself right to think better to practise mindfulness to go for yoga and, and seek help, you know, do many things basically, the responsibility lies on the individual to fix it. And, and not feeling that people understand what you're struggling, not, not feeling that people don't understand the kinds of conditions that you are located in can result in a profound sense of loneliness. We are not able to fix mental health condition or loneliness if we don't address the root cause of the problem.
Ali
Several weeks after their first session together, Gurnoor and Ee Ling caught up online.
Ee Ling
How have you been the last few weeks since we last met?
Gurnoor
I've had a lot going on like with uni and so I just yeah, just had like, it's been hectic. It's been crazy.
Ee Ling
Did the session bring up any uncomfortable feelings for you or any, did it make you feel that you have revisited certain memories that you may not want to encounter?
Gurnoor
I guess it's like pretty daunting to like, to talk about it sort of all in one go like that. But. Like I got the support that was necessary, which was good. But you know what, I think it definitely has brought some things to the surface, but in a good way where like I probably need to work through some stuff anyways. Yeah, I mean, I think it like overall, it was like definitely a good feeling. Like I left feeling very like, I think satisfied is the word I'd use. Because it just felt like such a like energising chat with someone like and like felt like there was space made for me and I got to talk about my experiences and that was really cool so yeah.
Ee Ling
Yeah, the connections are always more important, isn't it, to help even when we are talking about the topic of loneliness. Such connection was most, you know, demonstrating to us life in action, that it was the connection that we desire that helped us with our sense of loneliness. How was it like after we met? Did you manage to put in place any strategies that we discussed?
Gurnoor
Yeah, I did the podcast and then like time just sped by and life just got so busy. but like I've definitely sort of, the wheels have started turning in the sense that like, you emailed me some recommendations and I followed some of these accounts on Instagram. And so now it's like, at least I feel like something might pop up and that might pique my interest. And I could sort of attend something or something like that. So that was, I think that was a good step. And then what was interesting was like we had that chat and I thought about what we talked about and what it was I was looking for. And I thought about people that I've already met. And I think that definitely gave me some ideas of like, yeah, like maybe I can reach out to this person and, or reach out to this person and see if we can get together. So, it's not like a total stranger. It's like an acquaintance or somebody that like, I'm thinking of a specific person. Like I met at like a sort of a camp a few years ago. And it was like a cultural religious type of camp and I went with my family. And since then, like I've sort of followed her on social media and like, so like we haven't like stayed in touch, but I've sort of, you know, kept up with what she's doing. And she's very much sort of in that activism space. And like, she's just really cool. But I think I always like felt this sense of intimidation or like, you know, that I wouldn't be up to the same like level that she is. And I think that always stopped me from reaching out, even though I really sort of admire what she does and stuff like that.
Ee Ling
Yeah, so our conversation kind of sparked some ideas of connections, and it sounds like a good idea because... because there's so much alignment in your interest maybe or in the activities that this person is doing, there could be some good alignment.
Ee Ling
I keep these things in my radar but often I struggle with social anxiety myself and it's completely seasonal. I think that sometimes we need to also be very gentle with ourselves that, you know, that it depends on the season and it depends on how we feel and whether we have. Enough resources to put ourselves out there and try something new.
Gurnoor
Yeah, I think like it helped to take the pressure off of it, like not having that pressure to do it was so helpful because it's like it's not something that it's just like a short -term strategy like I think it's very much like a mentality and like something that's more long -term and so like like I was saying like I have been really busy and so like if I was to force it I don't think that would actually do me any good. Like it's a strategy in itself that like just over time you have these things already there or you're already aware of them. So then maybe when like maybe when I am feeling that way, like the quieter seasons or you know, just when that loneliness really creeps up then I already sort of know where to look.
Ee Ling
Yeah, and you can also email me. In fact when we’re really busy that sense of loneliness can be more acute because you feel that there's no real intimacy, you’re interacting with people who don’t get you.
Gurnoor
That’s very interesting because for example, with work, I work with kids. So, it's very cup -filling and it's really a lovely sort of line of work. But we're not having big, meaningful connections. That being said, I think in the work I do, sometimes these kids will teach me things and... I'll walk away from a session and be applying things to my own life. So, it's very interesting that way, but it's more indirect. And the work I do, it can be very tiring. And then uni for me at the moment is totally online there's no like contact with anyone, there's no lectures, nothing. But yeah, like I think for me, that's where when I am really busy, like thinking of all these different avenues, like work and uni, there's not as much room for me to be like having these connections and conversations. So, I really have to actively seek it out. But then I'm like so exhausted from like work and uni. So, it's like a bit of a cycle like that sometimes.
Ee Ling
Yeah, and so that's when on days like that those little tools might be helpful like just listen to a podcast, and those kind of you know, small little tools might just help that in the everyday loneliness that you might creep in sometimes just self soothe and helps to just remove some of that acute sense of alienation. So, I love watching some of the rears of video clips of stand -up comedians who deal with race and injustice and oppression or, you know, all kinds of horrible things in such a humorous way. It's so good. It's like you appreciate that craft and you love it, laugh at it and you also kind of just bring certain kind of chemicals and emotions in your body that help to alter something in your mind.
Gurnoor
Yeah, no, definitely. Like I, like I love when, you know, cause sometimes like obviously this stuff is really big and intense and hard to like think about. And when it's like put in that format, it's like, you still get to acknowledge, like you still get to like acknowledge that, you know, shit sucks, you know, but like you laugh at the same time and you're like, you feel seen, but you also just like, It's just, there's a lightness to it.
Ee Ling
Well, I would love to keep in touch after this and I would also love to know how you're going. Yeah, just to, you know, just keep that connection going. Yeah.
Gurnoor
Especially if you're attending an event, I think that element of having someone to go with or knowing someone that you know will be there, I think with the social anxiety part of it, I think is really helpful for me at least.
Ee Ling
Yeah, yeah, there are many free events that I know that in Sydney in our area and yeah, I'll send it your way and see if we can go together.
Ali
When you think about it, high schools are a pretty small pool of potential friends. If you’re lucky you can find people you connect with, and some find friends for life. Often, we find that we will bend ourselves to our school friends, to make sure we fit in. Once we leave school and through our twenties, we’re often spending time working out what we stand for, what we value and believe in. And if we realise our values are different to the people around us, that can make us feel lonely. It’s great to have a range of connections with people who relate to us in different ways. We can have friends who understand our cultural heritage, and others who share our political beliefs. We can know people who stand for the same things as us, and others who enjoy sport or music with us. No one person can be everything we need. It’s important to be open to different people and perspectives, to fill the different needs we all have.
If this show has raised any issues for you, remember there are always places to turn, such as Lifeline on 13 11 14; Beyond Blue.org.au; and ReachOut.com, which offers dedicated support for young people. For more information and tips to help you if you’re feeling lonely, visit we are lonely.com.au We are Lonely is produced as part of Medibank’s ten-year commitment to addressing loneliness. I am Ali Walker. This show was produced and edited by Liz Keen and Simon Portus from Headline Productions with support from Cara O’Brien and Olivia Patchett. Our theme music is by Kenneth Lampl. Our team from Medibank include Karen Oldaker, Katrina Weir, Jessica Salter and Rebecca Carter. And project and Production Management by Rob Ranieri and Nick Randall from Ranieri and Co.
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